IGN Preview

[Zimm]

Long time listener, first time caller.

IGN has just put up a nice preview of CotN. Check it.

http://pc.ign.com/articles/521/521373p1.html

[Miut]

Wow! Thanks, Zimm! This article is a MUST read because it answers a great many of our speculations, and gives the greatest insight yet into how it will be played. I am amazed at how many of our (collective) speculations were right.

So Day and Night exist, and each Day/Night corrsponds to a season - Flood, Planting, Harvest.
And no more coins - we go back to using grain as the main currency, just as the Egyptians did - now we are totally dependant on a good Innundation.

And we choose a capitol city and govern from there rather than dot about the map running cities. Plus there are 3 Kingdoms to play in - Old, Middle and New.

Go read it all for yourselves. :D
Thanks again, Zimm. ;)

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[Keith]

So three day/night cycles make a year and each "day" is a new season.

Now the next question is how long in real time is each day?
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[Niempie]

Wow :eek:
After reading the article I want the game even more. I can't wait until it is available in the stores :D
And no more money, just food to trade, just like the Egyptians themselves. :p

[Lannes]

Not many surprises here. I'm glad to see that trade, founding cities and military strategy will be played out on a separate world map (reminiscent of Caesar II?). What remains to be seen is the degree of control a player will have on it. Regarding the military, for instance, there's no mention of a tactical battle map. Personally I wouldn't mind if all battles were auto-resolved, but I'm certain a lot of people would.

Lannes

[EmperorJay]

When I read the first page, I got really excited. When I read the second page, I got even more excited. At the start of the third page, I started drooling, then I read the following:

The campaign structure will revolve around the old, middle, and new worlds in ancient Egypt. During each of these ages, players will have to pick a capitol city from which to rule. This is the one city that players will actually work on during the course of the game, instead of switching back and forth between various cities around the map.I read this as: "You get to build 3 cities during the whole campaign."

If this really is the case, I will seriously reconsider buying the game. Sandbox mode or not. :(

[Lannes]

I read this as: "You get to build 3 cities during the whole campaign."
If this really is the case, I will seriously reconsider buying the game. Sandbox mode or not. :(

I actually don't mind the fact you can only build three in succession, as long as there's variety in the city maps to chose from in each era. I'd rather play five campaigns of three cities than one campaign of fifteen cities.
As for being able to only build one city at a time, how that works out for me depends on how the world map (settlements, trade, mil strategy) works. We haven't seen too much of that yet.

Lannes

[EmperorJay]

Perhaps I was a little harsh, we don't know yet how much time we'll spend in the cities. But in each era, you choose a site for a capital which you will not leave... there are 3 eras, so that makes 3 cities for the whole game right?

That was the point I was trying to make. Even it the average gamer will spend 20 hours in each city, it still is just 3 cities. :( I can't believe this, I've read the quote I gave a lot of times now and I still can't explain it diffirently than I just did. I hope either IGN is wrong or have expressed themselves badly (or I'm just plain dumb, I can live with that if we'll have more than 3 cities to build during the whole game).

(I actually prefer the C3/Ph campaign style over the Zeus/Emp one, since the former gives me a much more the feeling of being a continuous story, while the later sometimes feels as a collection of missions.)

[Chungwa]

I read the article the same way as you did. 3 cities in the entire game. But, if that's the case, I'd assume it will be about not only starting the city, but having it grow.

That sounds great!

Why on earth do so many people enjoy starting cities 15 times? If it takes time to create the city, and then even more time for it to grow, what's wrong with fewer cities?

I'd be much happier playing a game where I get to create and then work on my city as opposed to creating one village, then a town, then a city and, finally, a real capitol.

[Eddy]

I'm of two minds. I liked having to create cities in Pharoah. The terrain and mission types could have a huge impact in how cities were laid out, and this does give more broadness to the game, but then again it might be neat to be able to start out as a tiny village and watch my city turn into a mighty capital. I don't know what to think.

[EmperorJay]

I'm not saying that 3 cities is bad in general, because some people indeed enjoy seeing the city just grow. I personally prefer the earlier stages of a city.

When one completed a mission in (for example) Pharaoh, the next terrain and events posed a new challenge, similar, but yet slightly diffirent. And the next mission was a new challenge again, again similar and again slightly diffirent etc. etc. Each mission one had to think carefully about where to start, what to build first and what to concentrate on first. As soon as the city was up and running, the player could very well just leave the city running and enjoy a cup of tea in the garden.

It might be enjoyable to see a city grow, but the terrain does not change. If you've found a way to efficiently transport raw materials to one part of the city to another, you won't have to change it at all. If you've chosen a site for your city center with all the important buildings, you won't have to change it. When you build houses (or when people have build houses) all you have to do is satisfy them. The challenge of having to face a new terrain is all gone now.

Perhaps the challenges CotN presents are not terrain based at all then, I assume. The main challenges will be politics, trade, economy and people. Altough the people will take care for themselves most of the time. All this has made me a little less enthusiastic, I admit, since it has become less of a citybuilder. But it hasn't made me less curious, I really want to know what it's all about then. It's just that I will more seriously be considering my investment when the game hits the shelves.

[Keith]

When I read the first page, I got really excited. When I read the second page, I got even more excited. At the start of the third page, I started drooling, then I read the following:

I read this as: "You get to build 3 cities during the whole campaign."

If this really is the case, I will seriously reconsider buying the game. Sandbox mode or not. :(
The way I read it is that you pick one city and stay with it for the entire kingdom period you choose to play. You aren't building a city one mission, jumping to a colony the next then back to another city or the parent city again. All your work is spent on your one and only capital city and nowhere else while playing the old, middle, or new kingdom. I don't believe that cities will roll over between kingdom periods.
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[Keith]

I'm not saying that 3 cities is bad in general, because some people indeed enjoy seeing the city just grow. I personally prefer the earlier stages of a city.

When one completed a mission in (for example) Pharaoh, the next terrain and events posed a new challenge, similar, but yet slightly diffirent. And the next mission was a new challenge again, again similar and again slightly diffirent etc. etc. Each mission one had to think carefully about where to start, what to build first and what to concentrate on first. As soon as the city was up and running, the player could very well just leave the city running and enjoy a cup of tea in the garden.

It might be enjoyable to see a city grow, but the terrain does not change. If you've found a way to efficiently transport raw materials to one part of the city to another, you won't have to change it at all. If you've chosen a site for your city center with all the important buildings, you won't have to change it. When you build houses (or when people have build houses) all you have to do is satisfy them. The challenge of having to face a new terrain is all gone now.

Perhaps the challenges CotN presents are not terrain based at all then, I assume. The main challenges will be politics, trade, economy and people. Altough the people will take care for themselves most of the time. All this has made me a little less enthusiastic, I admit, since it has become less of a citybuilder. But it hasn't made me less curious, I really want to know what it's all about then. It's just that I will more seriously be considering my investment when the game hits the shelves.
It sounds like those are not going to be the concern of the player in CotN. No worrying about where to start the city on the map. It may be that we simply pick the capital city from a list or map and then after some initial function the citizens start building their own houses. That comment about the shanties springing up whereever the people want them may also apply to the regular houses. It doesn't sound like we will have the same sort of control over building housing, roads, etc. that we had in Pharaoh.

I've seen lots of people express a desire to keep building the same city on the other boards. They hated having to leave to build a colony then come back and do more work on the parent then leave for another colony mission and come back. They just wanted to expand their original city. Looks like CotN is going to do this.

(I actually prefer the C3/Ph campaign style over the Zeus/Emp one, since the former gives me a much more the feeling of being a continuous story, while the later sometimes feels as a collection of missions.)
A single city should reinforce that "continuous story" feeling. It didn't matter to me whether we had the old C3&P style of campaign or the newer Z&Emp style of campaign. They were all seperate cities to me and never really felt like they were connected.
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[G-Force]

Besides the conquering, you'll also be founding new cities, and who do you think has to do that???? I'm sure there'll be more than 3 cities to build.

G-Force

[Keith]

Besides the conquering, you'll also be founding new cities, and who do you think has to do that???? I'm sure there'll be more than 3 cities to build.

G-Force
I'm not so sure. All other cities could just be "founded" by you by conquering them or establishing them on the world map that was mentioned. After that they may be pretty much on their own except for trade between your capital city and it. Anything that may happen outside your city may only take place on the world map without any direct player intervention. This would be similar to the old military style campaigns in Zeus and Emperor. You might dispatch your troops to defend a ally or conquer a enemy but would have no direct control over the battle or the operation of the other city in question.
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[Miut]

Perhaps you are missing some of the possible meanings behind "You choose a capitol city and stay with it.." part. Given how many cities were in Egypt, there could be infinite ways to play the game rather than just 3 cities to build. What if you choose to build at the Akhetaten site long before before Akhenaten existed, eh? Or to have the capitol in Tanis in the Delta instead of Thebes? That could give many different challenges, and the ability next time around (if I am right that we restart after the death of each major Pharaoh) to then rule from the historical capitol too, you know.

Another way of looking at it - In Pharaoh/Cleopatra, we build an early Alexandria for Alexander, then we do it again later.. this could be the same principle - we build it for the lifetime of one Pharaoh and start again for the next one.

Now it did occur to me when I loaded the 2nd Alex map that it would have been nice if the game allowed me to keep what I had built already, or at least provided me with some pre-built settlement to start with - have to admit I groaned at the thought of starting all over again on the same map..
So it may be that each time you (a Pharaoh) dies, you restart the city or get a new choice for your capitol. Nowhere did I see that that wasn't a possibility. Also remember that Tilted Mill may well have kept a lot under their sleeves yet with the game - if it is due at Xmas, still a lot of time for changes, still the need to keep some elements secret. :)

I wouldn't get too down yet. Trust Tilted Mill to have some nounce when it comes to knowing gamers such as us, and knowing the game market. :)

[EmperorJay]

Ok, last comment on this until I know more, promised. :) :p

Like I said, it's not bad and I have a lot of confidence in Tilted Mill, but you can't expect them to create a game the suits me perfectly. And this part of it might put me off.

[Keith]

People said the same sorts of things when the Imps changed the way C2 worked and gave us C3. It's all a matter of what you grow accustomed to. Given time we'll all get use to whatever CotN presents us with.
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[Eddy]

I hope that if it is indeed the same city that it sticks with what we built. In the Zeus demo, the first thing I always did was nuke the existing setup and start from scratch because I didn't like the layout presented to me. Yes, I am a control freak.

[vovan]

IGN has just put up a nice preview of CotN. Check it.

Good stuff. Thanks for the heads-up, Zimm.

[Uatch-Khepheru]

Well I don't think you will only build three cities in the game. This quote from the preview kinda made things clearer to me, atleast.

"From this seat, decisions will have to be made about exploration, trade, founding of cities, and war. Military decisions won't be played out inside of city maps, but will instead be calculated decisions about where to strike and when. Troops can be sent out from the city to conquer other areas. These forces can be seen on the world map, inching across the landscape until a battle occurs. It is in these ways that the world around your city will be shaped."

I think you get to "found" new cities and maybe start the initial planning, but after that I'm assuming a regional governor takes over, that you corespond with to change certain aspects of that city. In a way I'm glad, because it seems cotn will be broader in scope. Not so much city-builder as a granderous strategy to expand your empire. Of course, I would like to visit other cities, I just hope we're not "penned" down at the capital city at all times. One of my major concerns is the battle system, will we just send troops away, and then get a status report from our commanders whether or not we have achieved or goal?, or will we actually be there to command the troops?. I really hope its the latter.

[mouse]

That review/preview is stunning to say the very least :D Personally I hated the city start up in each mission because became pretty much routine. Sounds to me like CotN will be much more than a city building game more of a real life like empire building game :) Loaded with challenges and not alot of micro management but real planning so that the city evolves and grows over time ;) This to me makes the game even more exciting since it won't be just learning a new interface rather a whole new way of playing a game. That will keep me interested over a much longer term and I'll bet it will find a whole new group of players to add to the city building community :D

[G-Force]

And we're getting a map editor right? So it'll only be a matter of time before the community will provide us with a huge amount of maps to build our cities in.

G-Force

[Bradius]

I read the article fairly quickly after it was first posted, and have been following the posts. I am disappointed that there are so few cities being planned. I tend to like the challenges of setting up cities and whole new scenarios. Now, mind you, I also like staying in a city a long time too. It is just I was hoping for much more variety. That being said, if an editor is included, then I am sure the many fans around will make more than enough new city options to keep me more than satisfied. While I have some concerns, I am just going to trust the Tilted Mill staff to build an engaging game for me. They have been very sucessful in the past, so there is no reason to doubt this is going to be another blockbuster. I feel this even more stongly now that they are able to be freed from the corporate gaming world and can be much more creative than ever.

[Keith]

I read the article fairly quickly after it was first posted, and have been following the posts. I am disappointed that there are so few cities being planned.
I am not so sure that that is the case. I think some people are confusing the fact that you rule just one city with the number of optional startup cities we will be provided with. While you may only be able to rule one city at a time in all three kingdom eras, that doesn't mean that the number of choices you can pick from will be small. I'm sure there will plenty of choices to pick from at the start of the game with enough variety to keep most folks happy.
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[Bradius]

I hope so Keith. As I said 1) I will be happy anyway if we get an editor, and 2) In the end I trust the developers to make a great game.

[EmperorJay]

I hope so Keith. As I said 1) I will be happy anyway if we get an editor, and 2) In the end I trust the developers to make a great game.
My thoughts exactly.

[G-Force]

It's as if they've done anything to loose our trust, this is their first game :)
I'm sure it'll be a very good one!!

G-Force

[Chris Beatrice]

Hey all,
I just wanted to chime in and maybe clarify a few things. Ok, maybe not clarify so much as (hopefully) put your collective minds at ease. The IGN preview was great, but of course some things can be misinterpreted.

You will certainly build more than three cities in CotN, but I don't want to go into any detail right now about how all these cities are arranged and connected in the campaign(s) and scenario(s). I don't think anyone will be disappointed by the amount of gameplay and replay in CotN.

Oh, and one quick comment about the "shanties." Vagrants are a specific class of citizen, essentially the urban unemployed. They are people who have entered your society, moved up through the ranks, but then found themselves without a livelihood, and unable to return to "the wild" because they have become too specialized in their occupations to do so. They are then forced to leave their homes for a life on the streets, setting up mats, tents etc. in good begging spots, and basically becoming a nuissance to the rest of society (but they can re-enter society when jobs become available). These vagrant mats are the only types of "homes" whose locations you do not have direct control over. This is something we came up with very early on as a more dynamic, gratifying and realistic way of modeling the down and out members of society (vs. housing simply devolving, and/or emigration from the city). Part of the idea with the society builder as a whole is you are largely organizing the exact same group of people throughout the life span of the city and scenario.

-Chris

[Miut]

Makes sense. I actually like that concept. ;)

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[Uatch-Khepheru]

This is definitely a creative idea, but I would like to add on to it if I could. Maybe you could have a military/constable force that patrols the streets looking for the homeless, who gives them the boot out of the city. Perhaps the jurisdiction of the constables could end at the temples or other religious structures (as holy places constables can't defy the precints).

Also, about the city building thing. I think you can build a variety of cities during each campaign, but there is a "cap" that is designated by the time period's actual history. For example, I think the New Kingdom had a tremendous growth spurt as far as urban settlements were concerned, especially during the reign of Ramses II, who built Pi-Ramses, and I think some other cities/towns in the Delta. So, naturally, you will be able to build more cities. This is my theory, anyway.

[Caesar Alan]

While the tyrant in me likes the idea of being able to run the undesirables out of town, I think I'd prefer not to have that option. Why? Because in this case the undesirables have been created (presumably) by my own mismanagement of the city. Being able to just kick them out is an easy solution; having to provide them with a livelihood again is harder, and therefore (to me) a better solution to the problem.

This idea neatly addresses one of the parts of Pharaoh I found slightly inelegant: crime management. Simply being able to build police stations/courthouses to ward off the threat of crime always struck me as being a (if you'll pardon the pun) cop-out. This new system sounds (to me) much better.

Reading between the lines of Chris's post, it seems that our citizens are going to be able to learn new skills as the city develops. Thinking about it, that makes sense. In the early stages of the city, presumably only the basic survival skills will be needed, and the simple citizen will come with those built-in. In order to grow our city, though, we'll have to provide our people with the means of learning new skills (for example, to build a pyramid, we'll need to provide facilities for training engineers and masons). Sounds good to me...

[vovan]

Oh, and one quick comment about the "shanties." Vagrants are a specific class of citizen, essentially the urban unemployed. They are people who have entered your society, moved up through the ranks, but then found themselves without a livelihood, and unable to return to "the wild" because they have become too specialized in their occupations to do so. They are then forced to leave their homes for a life on the streets, setting up mats, tents etc. in good begging spots, and basically becoming a nuissance to the rest of society (but they can re-enter society when jobs become available). These vagrant mats are the only types of "homes" whose locations you do not have direct control over. This is something we came up with very early on as a more dynamic, gratifying and realistic way of modeling the down and out members of society (vs. housing simply devolving, and/or emigration from the city).

Great juicy bit of info. Thanks. :Dhttp://www.tiltedmill.com/forums/images/icons/icon14.gif

Part of the idea with the society builder as a whole is you are largely organizing the exact same group of people throughout the life span of the city and scenario.

Ooh, that gives you something to think about. :) Society builder vs. city builder. Interesting. Though, I imagine the group of people isn't exactly going to be the same through the ages? :) Or any given person last more than their normal lifetime? Lots of cool possibilities there. :)

[Chris Beatrice]

Ah, you guys are great! I think we've struck the right balance between making you suffer for creating the conditions that produce vagrants, but also giving you some tools for a more heavy-handed approach when that's called for. I'm not going to say anymore on this subject.

-Chris

[Bradius]

Thanks for the clarification Chis. You folks are truely the best!

G-Force, while Tilted Mill is new, Chris and most of the Tilted Mill staff have been making great games for years with other firms. It is my experience with the people, not the company that I am banking on.

The idea of vagrants sounds interesting. Hopefully we can do things other than get a similar position available for them to begin work. In our real world, someone will try for a few months for their same job, then they would be willing to take any job they are qualified for (within reason) as it beats being on the street asking for a handout. Hopefully retaining programs might be a possibility. The nasty side would be to conscript them in the military, mines, galleys or such. Anyway, it sounds like you are really trying to make the experience much more realistic, which sounds fine by me. More challenges to get things just perfect! :D

[EmperorJay]

Many thanks Chris! Again you've proved you're all worth the confidence!

I agree with Caesar Alan about the patrols who're on the lookout for homeless. However, if those beggars set up their shanties right in front of my beautiful palace I hope I'll have the option to "persuade" them to resettle in a little less desirable area. Kicking them out of town altogether is too easy, but moving them around is a good short term solution while you're working on creating jobs for them.

[Miut]

I can't see the authorities allowing anything to settle too near the palace, to be honest! I mean, it would be a busy area with dignataries coming and going as well as everything else that happens around a palace.. They could try but I am sure would be moved on from that vicinity and those of main temples, in very short order.. but lo0ads of baggars in the market place would tick the population off big time..

[Bradius]

Muit, your right. Normally beggars ended up around the temples. I guess people tended to feel more generous there.

[vovan]

I think we've struck the right balance between making you suffer for creating the conditions that produce vagrants, but also giving you some tools for a more heavy-handed approach when that's called for.

I think you've also struck the right balance between making us suffer without knowing how the game is going to work, but also giving us enough info to keep salivating in anticipation of more juicy bits.

;)

[Miut]

It must be extremely difficult for the Tilted Mill team to stay quiet about the game to such avid fans as us. After all, they have this cool new game full of really burning new ideas they are itching to share with us when the game comes out. I know when asked for tidbits of my next book, I find it almost impossible not to give hints and feel reallly mean when I refuse.

I have sympathy for these guys. ;)

[EmperorJay]

No sympathy! More News! More Information! More Screenshots! ;)

Just kidding. I can imagine how hard it is for them to keep quiet! Probably harder than it is for us to wait.

[Bradius]

Hum. Now that you mention it Muit. Any tidbits??? :D

(new fan)

[Miut]

You get the first chapter of each of the last 2 novels - 6th and 7th in the series - on my web site at sff.net/people/Lisanne. ;) Beyond that, go look at the forum for more news...;) http://p073.ezboard.com/bthebrotherhoodofvartra

[Ammurit]

While the tyrant in me likes the idea of being able to run the undesirables out of town, I think I'd prefer not to have that option. Why? Because in this case the undesirables have been created (presumably) by my own mismanagement of the city. Being able to just kick them out is an easy solution; having to provide them with a livelihood again is harder, and therefore (to me) a better solution to the problem.

Indeed. The benefactor in us (assuming there is one :) ) would like to see everyone happy, housed, clothed, fed, and so on.

[Keith]

Indeed. The benefactor in us (assuming there is one :) ) would like to see everyone happy, housed, clothed, fed, and so on.
"Sire! The people are revolting!"

"You said it! They stink on ice!"
-Mel Brooks, "History of the World Part I"

:D

[Bradius]

I think I said this once before. Whatever you do, make sure you feed your palace guard well!