Graphics Cards 2006

[Bugsy]

Hey everybody! Well, it's been a while for some of us to visit this topic, graphics cards. Like many people, I bought a new card to run COTN in all it's glory with sun and moon showing in the sky...

Now, in the second year later, I am beginning to have some issues with newer games on the old card, with it causing reboots of the pc, hang ups, crashes to desktop, and in game graphical color problems, even happening with older games now, so I think it's time for a new card.

I did some browsing, and found some good comparisson sites, but I must admit to still not fully understanding what I need out of a card. Some of the games I'm trying to run have pretty high end specs, which my card does meet, but I think the fan went on the card and it just wont function under pressure now.

So, what cards are good? Which do you drool for, and which are priced just right and get the job done? (I'm keeping in mind most people won't go for the $500 cards I've been seeing everywhere in my searches.)

All thoughts appreciated and welcome :D

[mouse]

Bugsy the issues your talking about may not be a video card problem (that's if you want to work with what you have now). If you just want a new video card that is a different thing:D Maybe if you tell us about your existing card we can help with that;)

[Keith]

Your top two contender brands are NVidia and ATI. You'll get recommendations from owners of both cards.

If I were looking at a Nvidia I'd be looking at nothing less than 6800 or better card. I believe their topend card is the 7800 series.

I'm a ATI owner and have had nothing but ATI cards for the past 15 years, so I'd be looking for something in the X850 or higher. Their top of the line unit is now the X1900

Of course, what you actually get will depend on what your current motherboard and system can support. Some top end cards require larger power supplies than some average computers come with. The big new thing is the PCI Express card, which is faster performance-wise than the older AGP 8X technology. But only the newer motherboards have these PCI Express slots.

More than 128MB RAM is pretty much the standard on video cards now.

And of all this is tempered by how much you can afford to spend. Get the best card you can afford.

My trusty old ATI Radeon 9800 Pro w/128MB is still doing a great job so I'm in no rush myself. Chances are by that time I'll be ready for a faster computer than my current 3Ghz machine.

[Bugsy]

My current card was highly recommended for COTN, ATI 9600 Pro. It has a severe overheating problem I found while playing Fable, and I've had the side off my tower and a small fan cooling during high graphics games since. It does this freaky thing with the picture, where you'll see random colored pixels, and it just gets worse from there as the card heats up. Cool it off, it does fine usually.

I'm attaching my DxDiag. I've run defrag, cleaned up my hard drive, plenty of space free, etc. On Dungeon Siege 2, it ran the game fine up until Act 2, and now it crashes within 5 minutes of loading the save file. Everything looks fine until it just crashes or locks up, requiring a hard boot to get back to desktop. I've called Microsoft, they walked me through a couple of hours of things to fix it, none worked, so they're convinced it's my card. It's a great card, but if I have to get another one cause it's overheating, may as well plan ahead a bit and get another good decent one.

I was looking at those GeForce 6800 cards earlier, not a bad price on them either. The ATI x800 was about the same price, but I didnt compare the specs, I admit I got overwhelmed quickly with all the specs listed for each.

After my post, I did call the guy at Microsoft back and asked what I needed for the game, he said the only requirements are DX 9 capable, Hardware Transform Lighting, and more than 32 MB on card. He also recommended a site: www.windowsmarketplace.com (http://www.windowsmarketplace.com)

So that's where I'm at now, after researching a bit more. It's all very confusing to me, geometry was easier to understand. :rolleyes: :confused: :o :D

[Amenirdis]

It has a severe overheating problem...

Before you buy an expensive new card, have you thought of replacing the fan on the graphics card? You can buy fans for graphiccards and install them yourself. Or do you still have a warranty on the card by chance?

I would also recommend on upgrading your RAM to at least 1GB, as you have only 384 MB which is way too low for running Windows XP and games decently.

On Dungeon Siege 2, it ran the game fine up until Act 2, and now it crashes within 5 minutes of loading the save file.

It might be a corrupt save game file. Do you have other, previous saves? Maybe from shortly before Act 2? You might try it from there and see if it still happens. Have you downladed the patch(es) for the game? Maybe other gamers on the DS2 forum had the same problem?

I was looking at those GeForce 6800 cards earlier

If you go for this card, I'd recommend the 6800GT version.

After my post, I did call the guy at Microsoft back and asked what I needed for the game, he said the only requirements are DX 9 capable, Hardware Transform Lighting, and more than 32 MB on card.

If you buy a new card, take one that has at least 128 MB on it. Everything lower is not worth the money anymore.

[Bugsy]

Before you buy an expensive new card, have you thought of replacing the fan on the graphics card? You can buy fans for graphiccards and install them yourself. Or do you still have a warranty on the card by chance?

No, no warranty left, over a year old, going on 2. I didn't realize you could replace the fan on the card itself. With the amount of time it's had a heating problem, I think I'd rather go with a new card in case it was damaged before I was aware of the issue. I'll look into more ram as well.


It might be a corrupt save game file. Do you have other, previous saves? Maybe from shortly before Act 2? You might try it from there and see if it still happens. Have you downladed the patch(es) for the game? Maybe other gamers on the DS2 forum had the same problem?

Of course I downloaded the patch before I even played it the first time, learned those lessons early on lol ;)

Made sure all drivers were up to date, all the usual stuff has been done. There's only one save game file, only thing I didn't like about the game so far, so I can't back up, it's either start over, or continue on this file. Since it doesn't crash right when the file loads, and does this same crash with other, older games, so I don't think it's just a corrupt save file.

[Amenirdis]

Bugsy got an AGP slot. :)
Is the price difference between a 6200 and a 6600 that big, Phil? How much would your next 6200 cost?


For the most part, I agree with both Keith and Amenirdis. However, if it is going in your current PC, one has to know what kind of bus slots you have. I'm an nVidia layalist so I'll use them as my references. Granted the FX7800 is the best card but only available with PCI Express bus. Bit expensive but well worth it if you have that bus. If not, you can go as low as a FX5200 (what I have currently) as it does have 128 MB as Amenirdis suggested. Depends on what cash you have. My next will be a FX6200 as one of the better AGP bus cards for one with my limited income. Those are my most likely suggestions depending on the bus you have.

Sincerely,
Phil

[Amenirdis]

No, no warranty left, over a year old, going on 2. I didn't realize you could replace the fan on the card itself. With the amount of time it's had a heating problem, I think I'd rather go with a new card in case it was damaged before I was aware of the issue. I'll look into more ram as well.
Ah, too bad the warranty doesn't apply anymore. :) And if the overheating problem has been going on for quite some time now, I agree with you to go for a new card, just to be on the safe side.
If you've got some more money to spend, I'd really recommend the RAM. It's a real bottleneck in your system at the moment.

Of course I downloaded the patch before I even played it the first time, learned those lessons early on lol ;)

Hehe, okay. :)

Made sure all drivers were up to date, all the usual stuff has been done.
That's good. :) :D

There's only one save game file, only thing I didn't like about the game so far, so I can't back up, it's either start over, or continue on this file. Since it doesn't crash right when the file loads, and does this same crash with other, older games, so I don't think it's just a corrupt save file.

Oh, I'm sorry. It seems I misunderstood you. I thought it happens only with that particular game. However, a game doesn't have to crash right after loading a save even if the savegame itself is corrupt. Had it happen to myself with another game. Well... it's a bit difficult to say what else could cause your games to abort like that. There could be many reasons. The small amount of ram could cause trouble, the graphicscard of course, or maybe some software conflict. Office applications run fine?

[Dog of the Sun]

I'm not computer literate, but have you tried going to the manufacter's website and looking for an update.

Short Story... I play Battlefield 2 online, and it gets really bad sometimes [choppy, slow, blurry], so... after telling them [ea] 'bout the problem, they have told me to go to the card website and download the update, [I go to ati.com and click windows and so on...] and it works perfectly, about every 2 weeks.


May not be your problem, but you might try it just to save some $.:rolleyes: :D

Edit, never mind bugsy, just read you updated your drivers....... well, this could be helpful to the rest of you.
Edit 2, are you talking only about that game, oh well nevermind.

[mouse]

Not sure about your card since it's just built on an Ati core but Ati cards have a 3 year warrenty:D Like Keith I only buy Ati cards. You do need a bit more memory since that would take the strain off your system but nothing like a gb of ram. Just bring your ram up to 512mbs. Considering the age of your system a new that the 9800 series would generate more heat, draw more power and generally in my opinion would be a waste of money. Make sure your power supply is good quality and can provide enough power to support a newer video card. If I were to recommend a card for your system provide your power is ok it would be the Ati 9800 Pro with 256mb ram.

[Keith]

I found this information over at Tom's Hardware that might help you make a decision.

http://www.tomshardware.com/2006/01/05/squeezing_value_out_of_lower_end_cards/

[Bugsy]

Thank you to everyone for your help and replies :D

I bit the bullet today, and headed up to Best Buy. What a nightmare it's been since then lol I get there, they don't have the suggested cards, or the ones I was looking at online here. Most of their stock is PCI Express, and AGP, which (thank you to Amenirdis) After a quick glance here from their store, I found out I had AGP. Soooo...

The only AGP cards they had that I even remotely thought would be nice was the GeForce 6200 OC, and the ATI Radeon X1300 Pro. I bought a RAM card, so now I have 768 MB of RAM. (Only 2 ram slots on this PC oddly enough, so I had to take the old 128 stick out to put the new 512 stick in.) That will do for now I think, since I wasn't having any issues with enough RAM to run that I know of.

I get the card home, sooo excited. Follow the install instructions to the letter, get everything hooked back up, power on, and I get these freaky vertical lines all over the screen, that don't go away...

ATI was closed for the evening, the lines of course aren't mentioned in the book's Troubleshooting section, and the Geek Squad wants me to bring it in and pay $100 for them to even tell me if the card I spent two hours picking out *with their help and assurance it would work for me* is even compatible with my system, and to install it. :eek: :rolleyes: :mad:

Oy! So I took it back out, put the old one back in, and I'm up and running, I'll call ATI tomorrow and see what they say. I really hate upgrading my PC, it's never simple. Plug n Play my foot! :p

[mouse]

Bugsy you got way more card than your system can handle:mad: Never ever listen to the Geek Squad:mad: You paid too much for the card. Ok so I'll stop ranting now.

Did you uninstall all of the ati software with reboots as needed before attemtping to install the new video card. After uninstalling all the Ati software you should only have the standard VGA for video. Did you also connect the power supply plug to the new card? It's very possible your power supply isn't strong enough to handle the power the new card draws.
My suggestion would be to go to an online seller to buy your card. zipzoomfly will give 2 day free shipping, no sales tax and a much cheaper price.

They have the card you bought for $179.00.

[Bugsy]

Mouse, rest easy darlin! :D I didn't pay too much, I paid $169. for it hehe

I did uninstall the old, but the instructions never said to install standard, so I didn't, good to know for the next round. And noooo I did not connect it to the power supply, as the instructions (which are very generic and not card specific by the way), didn't say I had to, it said IF your card needs to be connected to it to do it...well, my old one wasn't, so I figured this one didn't need to be. :rolleyes: :D Wrong again, it does need to be, and get this, right on the box, it says requires 350W power supply...and I have a 250W power supply. DOH! :eek:

So I went online, and googled tech chat, and found a nifty chat room at www.windrivers.com (http://www.windrivers.com) with some bored techies, and they fixed me up I think. For all the stuff I now have in this sad little Compaq, they said a new case was my best solution, since it comes with a new more powerful power supply, and a new fan (no more overheating yay!), for a nice low cost of about $100.

Here's a link to the case I bought tonight, it will be here in 3 days or less.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16811129157

So whatcha think Mouse, am I fixing it or making it worse? I had plenty of HD space, processor seems to be plenty fast enough for now, and motherboard works nicely too, so I figured this is the easiest and most cost effective solution for getting me a better gaming pc going.

[mouse]

Bugsy nice looking case but there are several problems with what you plan to do (gosh I hated to say that). 1. Compaq computers use custom motherboards so a standard power supply such as is in the case your looking at wouldn't work since it couldn't connect to the motherboard. 2. Another custom item about the motherboard is case connections which again can be a problem with connecting the case to the motherboard. 3. The case your looking at is mini-tower case you would have overheating problems with it too. If replacing the case was the solution you would need a mid-tower case. One other point you can't change the power supply in the case you have now because Compaq/HP use specially built power supplies. Standard power supplies wouldn't fit in the case.

Wish I could have had better news for you on this. Again I'm not even sure your power supply would be enough for the Ati 9600 or above cards in the 9000 series since they do need a power connection too.

As for Best Buy and their Geek Squad they just do awful things to nice innocent folks who have no one else to turn to for help. Best Buy casued me to start bulding my own computers and fixing computers for other people.

[Bugsy]

:eek: :(

Oh man, that just sucks. The case isn't here yet, should be in a day or two...if the motherboard won't fit, I may as well finish building a pc and get one at this point, and just do away with all the problems. What I meant by the new case solving my cooling problem is my fan doesn't blow anymore, so it replaces my fan too since it comes with one.

[Keith]

You know for a price between $299 and $499 right now, you can get a nice new Dell desktop system, which includes all new hardware now. ;) :D

[mouse]

Bugsy the motherboard will fit but the other problems I listed will still exist:(
Building a system isn't that difficult but Keith has a point about low end systems. You can't build and beat the low end system price but since you have that lovely new video card and a new case you might want to think about building your own:D

[homegrown]

I'm an nVidia fan. Here's the news for 2006 and beyond though. The old trusty GeForce MMX 440, isn't cutting it any more. Bottom of the barrel for someone what wants the "highest" graphics settings is the 5700 series. I can't remember off hand what it is about the 5200 series cards, but they lack the last upgrade to pixel shaders or bumpmapping or something. You need a fully compatible directx 9.0 card.

While the 7800 is the "Top of the Line", that line was *just* released this quarter, the 6800 is it's predecessor, and it's hard as heck to find one anymore for an AGP slot. All of nVidias new lines seem to be PCI-e only. So the 6600 is the "best of the agp" from nVidia.

With nVidia, just watch out for the difference between the LE (or SE) and the GT. Just like if you were buying a Mustang, you want the GT. The LE (while they may come at 256MB seemingly cheaply), do not function as well as the GT with 128MB from the same chipset design).

I just completed my 2006 upgrades. Did pretty well. Upgraded my video card (again! 5700 -> 6600GT this time - $140) upgraded RAM from 1GB of DDR 333 to 2GB of DDR 400 ($160), and installed a new DVD-RW ($40). With the extra parts, I was also able to build another lower end machine for about $200 (case, mobo/cpu combo). It now runs at 2.13Ghz, with my old gig of DDR 333, GeForce 5700. Much better that the 256MB Celeron 1.2 Ghz with no agp slot we *used* to have on that desk. :)

Funny thing about the DVD-RW.. in order to play the dvd's i write on my tv's dvd player... I had to buy a new DVD player. :O

[Bugsy]

lol Keith, ya that would have been easier, and my husband did try to talk me into a new computer, but I told him no cause I'd have to buy a new card anyway...I didn't forsee all this other happening lol

Mouse, I don't think I'll have the same cooling problem with a new fan in the new case, plus a new fan on a new motherboard, and new fan on a new card...I'm hopeful anyhow. Cause I've pretty much decided if mine won't transfer, I'm gonna go get a new one.

I've been looking at the AMD boards on newegg.com, but I've no idea what all the jargon with them means, or how to begin picking one out. :cool:

[Bugsy]

Ok scratch that...I've been talking with my local comp repair shop, dude knows his stuff, I've sent him work for years now, he says I'd be better off sending the case back, and just buying a barebones tower made to my specs online, even he couldn't beat that price. He said new issues come into play with a new motherboard such as RAM types and speeds as well, plus, since I have Windows XP, I can't put a new motherboard in without reinsalling Windows XP entirely from cd...I don't have a cd itself, since it's a Compaq, it's contained on the hard drive, not even a restore disk like they used to send out with them.

At this point, I'm ready to throw the towel in. LOL

So I'm sending back the case before I even open it, gonna return the items to the store while I can, get all my cash back together and regroup and see what else to do next, which may be to get a barebones and just keep my old tower for the kids to game on, since it runs the arcade types. (So it's the same as you're suggesting Mouse, building a new one, but without buying individual parts, which he said would cost more than building one online) He's a super honest guy, lost a high dollar in business from me by suggesting I go online to get it. But I'm still gonna take him some, cause I've decided the tower I'm using now, will get formatted for the kids mostly, and Win 98 loaded on it, which means my older games I miss will run again. (Dungeon Keeper 2 hooray!)

I have such a headache from this. It's never simple.

[Keith]

Since purchasing my 1st generation Dimension XPS system from Dell they've broadened their XPS line (http://www1.us.dell.com/content/products/features.aspx/gaming_xpsdt?c=us&cs=19&l=en&s=dhs) and now offer several models at various prices in their topend "gaming system."

The topend XPS 600 machine now runs $4329 complete running the new Intel 3.2 Ghz Pentium D Dual Core Extreme Edition processor, Genuine Windows® XP Media Center 2005 Edition, Dual GeForce Go 7800 GTX graphics with SLI, 2 GB Dual Channel1 (http://www1.us.dell.com/content/products/features.aspx/gaming_xpsdt?c=us&cs=19&l=en&s=dhs#tn1)DDR2, and Dell's 24"W Flat Panel Display.160GB3 Serial ATA Hard Drive (7200RPM) w/ Native Command Queuing. Dual Drives: 16x DVD-ROM Drive + 16x DVD+/-RW w/ dbl layer write capable. PC-cillin Internet Security with AntiVirus and Spyware removal 15-months. No Productivity Suite - Corel WordPerfect® word processor only. 1Yr Ltd Warranty4, 1Yr At-Home Service5, and 1Yr HW Warranty4 Support.

The next step down XPS system runs $1799. With less RAM and a Nvidia 6800 card and 2.8Ghz processor.

There is also a XPS 400 that comes in two less expensive flavors.

I typically keep my machine until it becomes too slow or obsolete to run the latest stuff. I don't usually update the hardware. Then I get a whole new machine. This usually occurs about every 4-6 years on average. I've had this one for two years and change, and expect to get at least another year or two from it. By then I'll be ready for a new topend Dell system.

[Bugsy]

Wow Keith, sounds like an awesome system! :)

Unfortunately, so far out of my budget I couldn't do it.

I found at www.leadcomp.com (http://www.leadcomp.com) a very nice easy to use "kit", where you use drop down menus to customize a unit. I'm gonna post what I've built in my budget, that looks to me to do everything I want out of it, now, and in the future year or two for gaming to see what you guys think. Some of the stuff made little sense to me, and I chose based on cost not the jargon, but it was super easy to see what the best values were with the same specs, their site is simple to understand, not like a few others I tried out. (In case anyone else wanted to do something like this)

I won't be buyin anything for at least a week until the case gets back to them.

BAREBONE PC, Socket 775 DDR400 AGP Budget Computer Barebone $593.98 TOWER CASE, Black Mid-Tower, 400W PS, Front USB, ATX
ECS, 661GX/800-M7, SiS® 661GX, 800MHz FSB, DDR400 /2GB, AGP 8x, SATA RAID, Video, Audio, mATX, Retail
INTEL, Celeron® D 326 2.53GHz EM64T XD, 533MHz FSB, 256KB L2 cache, 90nm, LGA775, Retail
DDR400, 1GB (2 x 512MB) PC3200 DDR 400MHz SDRAM DIMM, Non-ECC
MICROSTAR, NX6600-VTD256, GeForce™ 6600, 256MB DDR, AGP 8x, DVI, TV-Out, VIVO, Retail
SEAGATE, 80GB, SATA 150MB/s, 7200 RPM, 8MB cache
OPTICAL DRIVE, Black 52x32x52 CD-RW Drive, IDE, Retail
COOLER MASTER, Qty 2 x Case Fan, 2in. x 2in.
MICROSOFT, Windows XP Home Edition
WARRANTY, Assembled and Tested (1 Year Parts, 1 Year Labor Warranty)

I didn't pick a modem, nor a floppy drive, I havent used a floppy disk in 2 years, don't think I'll need it. I have cable modem through a router (cause we have 2 comps), so having the network card is about all I needed there.

The card looks like a decent one, supports DX9, wasn't bottom price, but wasn't highest either, mid range on their selections. (I could easily have built a super top of the line computer there for several thousand as well as a budget one.)

This appears to solve all my problems in one go, and after my refunds on the parts already purchased, I'll only be adding about $150 to get this. (Plus it has 2 additional cooling fans, should not have a cooling problem now!) I don't understand the motherboard or processor areas though at all, and I'm not sure I got all I need for power on both of them. My current pc has 2.0 GHz processor, so I figured a small step up should work just fine. I had no problems running anything on this computer before the card began overheating, so I guessed I didn't need much more power there.

[Amenirdis]

Forget Celeron. They're okay for office applications, but not for games. You won't be happy with it. Athlon 64 or Pentium 4 are much the better choices.
Also, you might wanna consider going for a PCI-Express Graphicsport right away (if money allows it) as AGP is dying out.
Also, I noticed that you chose a CD-RW drive. That's alright, if you don't need to play DVD's on it. It also seems to be a no-name drive.

[Keith]

Yeah, dump the Celeron processor and get the full-up Pentium D processor if you want the most performance. The topend processor doesn't have a "name" after it such as Celeron, etc.

And if you can, get a 3.2GHz processor. It's worth it.

Whats the wattage rating of that system power supply? I'd recommend anything over 450w. The XPS 600 comes with a 650w power supply inside.

[Bugsy]

Thanks, I'll check on the processor, they had the Pentiums, so I'll check out how much extra it would be. It has 400W power supply. I don't play DVDs on my comp, I have a DVD player on the TV for that lol I just need the basic burn back up files RW. I'll check out the PCIe cases they had too, see what the cost difference would be. I truly appreciate all the help and advice from everyone! :)

[Keith]

The higher wattage power supplies will ensure that you can run any later hardware that you may add like a newer video card two or three years from now that may require even more power from the supply than some of the ones do now. Hardware is getting more and more power hungry as manufacturers come out with each year's new models.

My Radeon 9800 Pro requires a hookup to the power supply so my system came equipped with a 450w unit.

[Amenirdis]

Thanks, I'll check on the processor, they had the Pentiums, so I'll check out how much extra it would be.
See if they offer a pc to your liking also with an AMD 64 processor (preferably Socket 939). They are usually a bit cheaper than Intel but just as good (especially for games). And I believe to have read that they produce nowaday less heat than Intel CPUs.

[reachrishikh]

You're right Amenirdis, the current AMD 64 processors with the venice core run much cooler than their Intel counterparts. That's why I've chosen an AMD based solution for my new system. And it offers phenomenal performance benefits over Intel these days.
Bugsy, you should opt for an AMD platform instead of Intel, if you're considering a new system altogether. You could check out the plain AMD 64 line, if not the X2 or FX lines, if budget is tight, as I've done. Also go for a socket 939 as Amenirdis suggests, as it will future-proof your system.
BTW, does anyone know, is the AMD 64 FX-60 a dual core processor? It says it has 2 cores on some tech spec page on the AMD website ( www.amd.com/us-en/Processors/ProductInformation/0,,30_118_9485_9488%5E10756,00.html ), but I asked their sales reps here, and they said the FX line does not feature any dual core processors. But it could be they do not have adequate info, as the FX series still hasn't made it here yet.

Keith, you really are a Dell fan aren't you ? Which XPS system do you have? How has your experience with Dell's systems been all these years? Ever faced an HDD crash ? That seems to be very common issue on their systems. And did you know they have a lot of issues with their hardware, it seems they put substandard quality products in their systems, and then spend tons on technical support, to set their customers' hardware issues right.

"You know for a price between $299 and $499 right now, you can get a nice new Dell desktop system, which includes all new hardware now" - For once, don't listen to Keith here, those low end Dell Dimension Desktops or even Optiplexes suck as far as performance is concerned and the overall Dell hardware is faulty, gives too much problems to customers in the long run, and then their technical support will try to push you to their 100$ an incident software support, even if it is a hardware issue. Believe me, I've had first hand experience with those systems.
Whoa, the XPS 600 comes with a 650W power supply ?
I didn't know that. Thats really great. I sat down with a few friends one particularly slow day, and we just hovered to Dell's website, and chose custom configurations for the XPS 600, choosing all the highest end configurations that it offered and the end price was, you won't believe it - 10000 $. If I convert that to rupees, I could buy a decent car for that amount !
But it sounds like a great system, my friends actually got to see one of them one day during their training, they couldn't stop marvelling at it. ( Dell doesn't sell the Dimension or XPS lines in India, just Optiplexes ). But I know it will give problems later on as with all Dell systems.

[Manni]

Here is a compare-list for the fastest cpu (dated January)

[Amenirdis]

Thank you for confirming my guess about the heat, reachrishikh. :)

And as far as I've read about the FX60 in various hardware magazines, it is indeed a dual core processor.


BTW, does anyone know, is the AMD 64 FX-60 a dual core processor? It says it has 2 cores on some tech spec page on the AMD website ( www.amd.com/us-en/Processors/ProductInformation/0,,30_118_9485_9488%5E10756,00.html ), but I asked their sales reps here, and they said the FX line does not feature any dual core processors. But it could be they do not have adequate info, as the FX series still hasn't made it here yet.

[Lonsgard]

The FX-60 is a dual core processor, each core runs at 2.6 ghz with 1 meg of cache.

I'd personally recommend the Opteron 165 or 170, since they are also dual core, 1 meg cache - unlike the X2 which only has 512k cache.

I have an Opteron 165 running at 2.7 - 100mz faster than the FX-60, and it only cost me ~275 bucks.

[Keith]

Keith, you really are a Dell fan aren't you ? Which XPS system do you have? How has your experience with Dell's systems been all these years? Ever faced an HDD crash ? That seems to be very common issue on their systems. And did you know they have a lot of issues with their hardware, it seems they put substandard quality products in their systems, and then spend tons on technical support, to set their customers' hardware issues right.

I have an original first generation Dimension XPS system. The first ones they build specifically with performance gaming in mind.

I've had great support from Dell. The only problem that took a while to track down as a faulty memory strip that would cause my system to lock up a random moments. Dell replaced my motherboard, my CPU, and my memory strips before the problem finally disappeared.

I have never had a hard drive crash on a Dell. All the hardware on my system is brand name first line stuff, Western Digital, ATI, Samsung, etc. I haven't had any hardware issues since correcting the faulty memory strip.

"You know for a price between $299 and $499 right now, you can get a nice new Dell desktop system, which includes all new hardware now" - For once, don't listen to Keith here, those low end Dell Dimension Desktops or even Optiplexes suck as far as performance is concerned and the overall Dell hardware is faulty, gives too much problems to customers in the long run, and then their technical support will try to push you to their 100$ an incident software support, even if it is a hardware issue. Believe me, I've had first hand experience with those systems.

Wrong. These are not the lowend systems like the Optiplexes. The Dimensions are their higher end systems. You've got the wrong informations. As I said, I've had no problems with the hardware other than the one memory strip and my system is over 2 years old now.

Their incident technical support doesn't cost $100, unless you want in-home service. I paid an extra $100 for a extended in-home service warranty and its paid for itself and I've still got a year left on the contract. I get bumped to the head of the tech support lines and I get connected to special tech people that handle only the XPS system.

I'm on my second Dell system, my previous Dell lasted 4 years before I decided it was time to get something faster.


Whoa, the XPS 600 comes with a 650W power supply ?
I didn't know that. Thats really great. I sat down with a few friends one particularly slow day, and we just hovered to Dell's website, and chose custom configurations for the XPS 600, choosing all the highest end configurations that it offered and the end price was, you won't believe it - 10000 $. If I convert that to rupees, I could buy a decent car for that amount !
But it sounds like a great system, my friends actually got to see one of them one day during their training, they couldn't stop marvelling at it. ( Dell doesn't sell the Dimension or XPS lines in India, just Optiplexes ). But I know it will give problems later on as with all Dell systems.

The topend XPS as it comes equipped runs just over $4300 with a 19" flat panel monitor, keyboard, mouse, etc. If you want to customize your system you can and that will cost you more, but the standard XPS 600 should be plenty machine for most gamers.

True, I would not wish an Optiplex system on anyone. It was oddly configured and not something I'd buy in the first place.

I'll swear by Dell until they sell me something that doesn't work. At this point in time, Dell has delivered everything it promised with the XPS system.

[Amenirdis]

I'd personally recommend the Opteron 165 or 170, since they are also dual core, 1 meg cache
Do these use the Socket 939 or 940?

[Lonsgard]

They come in socket 939

[Bugsy]

They do have the AMD, and I actually prefer it from experience, so I'll reconfigure with that. I have never had Intel, always AMD, and never had much problems with that end of it. They also have Socket 939. What does that mean exactly? Thanks again everyone :)

[reachrishikh]

"Their incident technical support doesn't cost $100, unless you want in-home service. I paid an extra $100 for a extended in-home service warranty and its paid for itself and I've still got a year left on the contract. I get bumped to the head of the tech support lines and I get connected to special tech people that handle only the XPS system. "

Sure Keith, you say all this because you have an XPS system, that means you're one of their premium customers. But the poor guys who own Dimension Desktops won't have the same pleasant things to say, especially about the tech support. Since you have an XPS system, the XPS customers have a special support line that only handles XPS systems, as you mentioned. And they will even solve all your software issues as I've heard. The in-home warranty that you refer to is only limited to a guy coming to your place to replace internal components that have gone bad though.These guys don't come over to troubleshoot, you have to do that over the phone. As far as the Dimension or Optiplex owners are concerned, their warranties do not include any software related issues, for that they have to go to their special software support lines which charge 100 $ per incident, even if it means it is a simple issue in which the cust wants to install some software or has some how-to questions for customizing some software.

"The Dimensions are their higher end systems. You've got the wrong informations" - Actually the low end dimension systems I was referring to do not ship anymore. But they do have a segregation of Value Line, Medium and High End computers within the Dimension systems, even with the currently shipping ones. I believe the currently shipping Value Lines would be the Dim 3000 or the Dim 1100. But even their value line systems come pretty decently configured these days. Although I shouldn't have compared the currently shipping Value Lines to the optiplexes.

"True, I would not wish an Optiplex system on anyone. It was oddly configured and not something I'd buy in the first place." - I actually had to work on those dumb systems. They are really, really slow. Even my old Pentium Celeron 800 MHz, 256 MB Ram system with Win XP runs a lot faster than those systems with P4 2.something GHz processors, 256 MB RAM running on Win 2000.

[reachrishikh]

The FX-60 is a dual core processor, each core runs at 2.6 ghz with 1 meg of cache.

I'd personally recommend the Opteron 165 or 170, since they are also dual core, 1 meg cache - unlike the X2 which only has 512k cache.

I have an Opteron 165 running at 2.7 - 100mz faster than the FX-60, and it only cost me ~275 bucks.
I checked out their website, the Opteron 165 is only 1.8 GHz and the 170 is 2.0 GHz and they both have 2MB L2 cahche.
275 $ - almost equal to Rs. 13,750. Sigh, you make me hopeful Lonsgard. I wish that would be the price here !
Now since its Sunday today, I'll have to wait for a day and a half to get their prices. ( It's past midnight here right now ):mad:
BTW, if the price clicks with me, will this Opteron 165 or 170 work with any 939 pin supporting motherboard. More specifically, will it work with the one I had selected before - Asus A8N SLI Deluxe ? If not, could you please recommend a few good compatible motherboards to me ? I couldn't find a link on the AMD webiste till now, which shows recommended motherboards for the Opterons, and I'm still looking.

[Lonsgard]

The opteron 165, socket 939 will work in an ASUS SLI Deluxe, but you might need a bios update in order for it to recognize dual core chips.

The opteron 165 defaults to 1.8ghz, but the opteron line in particular seems to overclock very well.

[reachrishikh]

The motherboard does recognize dual core chips in general as it supports the Athlon X2 line along with the FX and vanilla 64 lines.
But don't worry, I have just dashed off a letter to AMD about the same issue, and I am hoping they give me an early reply. I cannot depend on their sales reps here to give me technical info ( remember the FX-60, he said it was single core ).

[Keith]

Sure Keith, you say all this because you have an XPS system, that means you're one of their premium customers. But the poor guys who own Dimension Desktops won't have the same pleasant things to say, especially about the tech support. Since you have an XPS system, the XPS customers have a special support line that only handles XPS systems, as you mentioned. And they will even solve all your software issues as I've heard. The in-home warranty that you refer to is only limited to a guy coming to your place to replace internal components that have gone bad though.These guys don't come over to troubleshoot, you have to do that over the phone. As far as the Dimension or Optiplex owners are concerned, their warranties do not include any software related issues, for that they have to go to their special software support lines which charge 100 $ per incident, even if it means it is a simple issue in which the cust wants to install some software or has some how-to questions for customizing some software.

Sure I say that because that's my experience with them. You say what your saying because of your experience with the other Dell systesms, but you haven't had a XPS.

Actually the tech support for the regular Dimensions is just as good, because when I bought my XPS system I also bought Dimension 4600 for my wife and we had to talk with tech support a couple times regarding a problem with her machine.

You get warranty support for any of the software that the system comes equipped with. You can pay for a longer warranty that will also cover 3rd party software that you install yourself. Generally though I've never been asked on either machine if the system came with the software I was asking about.

[Amenirdis]

They come in socket 939
That's great! Thanks for the info. Now I have even more possibilities. :)

[reachrishikh]

[/font]



You get warranty support for any of the software that the system comes equipped with. You can pay for a longer warranty that will also cover 3rd party software that you install yourself. Generally though I've never been asked on either machine if the system came with the software I was asking about.


What you're referring to, Keith, is what was Dell's policy about a year and a half ago. You must have called them sometime before that. About sometime in Sep 2004, they split the hardware and software support lines ( before this there was just one support line, the hardware techs also used to support the software ) and introduced the Dell on Call fee based software support. Try calling them with a software issue with your Dim 4600 now and see the results yourself ( i.e give them the svc tag of the Dim 4600, not your XPS system ). I know all this because I used to say these very same things to Dell customers on the phone. I had got a job as a Tech Support Agent with them for a while ( part time only, I quit after a while, I'm still studying you see ). :)

[Bugsy]

I don't think I've ever even tried to call tech support for a software issue, besides a game company when the game wouldn't run. I guess I always assumed they don't offer software support, and I'll search online or figure it out myself usually. I will say that a couple years back, my dad had a Dell something or other, and I called them for hardware support, they were most helpful, the parts were shipped, was easy to send back the old, but like I said, that's a few years back.

Compaq used to be IMO one of the leaders in customer support, but since they were bought out by HP, that went down the toilet. Now you have to either ship your entire tower to them, which they do foot the bill for, but you wait for them to send you the box, or you can expedite the process by paying $50, I guess then they overnight the box to ship it in. You can also pay $30 for in home service, which is paid up front, and you still wait a few days to even be scheduled in. They used to have distribution centers that did the work on the computers, now the distribution centers would just ship them to home office anyway they said, so your only option is to ship it and be down for 2 weeks while it's fixed and sent back or pay to have someone come out...either way, you get stuck. I can't imagine a business owner having to go through that long a wait, or wanting to send their tower with sensitive info on it to the place to be fixed.

[reachrishikh]

Oh no, the Dell cust / tech support is quite good, what sucks is their hardware components. The amount of dispatches we used to create for replacing components !
If we take 20-24 calls a day, we end up sending 4-5 replacements. Now I feel the reason Dell spends so much on tech support is that it knows that its hardware is going to fail and it needs someone to verify that it has indeed failed and then send the replacements. It doesn't bode well for a company that large to ship hardware that keeps failing so often. I have a locally assembled system which I've had for quite a few years now, with little upgrading done over the years. The original components are as much as 5-7 years old ( and this system wasn't even assembled by me, I was quite young back then). And I don't remember one incident ( baring a memory stick replacement, which had outlived its useful life - 4 years ) where I had to replace a component which had gone bad. See the difference ?
Now the Dell services are prompt and good. They send the replacement parts to your place with a technician to do it within a couple of business days after your chat with their tel support techs. But I wouldn't vouch for the stuff they put in their computers.

P.S for all Dell customers, when I say they send a tech to replace parts, that's only for replacing parts which fit inside the system tower and not anything that comes under the 'peripherals' category. Also they don't send people over to troubleshoot, you have to do it over the phone, no matter what.

[Keith]

Also they don't send people over to troubleshoot, you have to do it over the phone, no matter what.

Yes, they do, if you have the correct warranty. Of course, in-home service is an extra expense, but worth it....no shipping or messing around.

As for troubleshooting, no problems there, the XPS and Dimension 4600 system I have diagnostic LEDs on the back. All I have to do is tell them which ones are lit and what color they are. From that alone the problem is already narrowed down.

You keep saying the hardware components are bad. Not according to "Consumer Reports" magazine that does testing. They accept no advertising and buy all the items to be tested annonymously, so they don't have to sugar-coat a bad product. The rate at which CR gets sued by companies confirms that. For example, their famous product report on the Isuzu "Trooper" truck killed sales of that truck and got them sued. CR won the case, by the way. Dell and Gateway usually rate 1 or 2 in most of the tests they run.

As for the peripherals, that may have been the case when you worked for them and Dell was selling peripherals with other brand names on them, but now they sell Dell-branded peripherals.

[reachrishikh]

Of course Keith, but that all depends on individual experiences. I just stated my experience with them and you stated yours, which, incidentally, has been quite good. BTW, did you know, the component which is dispatched most frequently is the HDD, followed by LCD monitors and then motherboards. I once had to replace 2 19" LCD monitors in the same day.
And for the record, I quit working with them only half a month back, so my anecdotes are quite recent. :)

[reachrishikh]

The opteron 165 defaults to 1.8ghz, but the opteron line in particular seems to overclock very well.

You mean you successfully overclocked the 1.8 GHz processor to 2.7 GHz ? Wow Man, I gotta get that chip if I can! Does that mean both the cores now run at 2.7 GHz each? Also, what motherboard have you mounted your assembly on, Lonsgard ?

[reachrishikh]

Lonsgard, I'm still waiting for your reply. I need to make a purchase decision, you see. :) Also, do you face any overheating issues after the overclocking ? if so, then what measures have you taken to solve them ?

[Lonsgard]

I'm running on an ASUS SLI-Premium

The chip defaults at 9x200 = 1.8 - I moved it up to 9x300 = 2.7

I use an SI-120 to cool the sucker.

Not every chip can overclock this well, but on the whole they seem to work great.

(I was out of state for a med school interview)

[reachrishikh]

What's an SI-120 ? Is that a water-based cooling system ?
And I'm getting the same chip - AMD Opteron 165, probably tomorrow, mounting it on an ASUS SLI-Deluxe. ( guess there's not much difference between our motherboards then, except for the SLI bit ).
When you say 'not every chip' do you mean different models of the same line or different physical pieces of the same model ?
And, that's all right, about you being unable to reply, I couldn't have bought my stuff before today anyway. :)
How'd your interview go ?

[Lonsgard]

The interview went great.

The SI-120 is a large, heatpipe based heatsink/fan.
http://www.thermalright.com/a_page/main_product_si120.htm

All of the Opteron dual core series are the 'same'. There is no difference in the design of the circuitry that gets burnt into the silicon.

After a batch of chips are made, they are binned according to speed. However, many times the chips sold at the lowest speed grade were able to go much faster than they were rated at. This is especially the case with certain batches of chips, such as the Opteron 165 that I have. Even if your Opteron 165 wont overclock as well as mine, it is still a wonderful chip.

To get the best results overclocking, I recommend not increasing the voltage - just slowly ramping up the clock speed, a few mhz at a time and then running two instances of SuperPI (to test out the cores).

[reachrishikh]

What's SuperPI? Is it some third party software to check the cpu heat, performance etc ?

Lonsgard, doesn't using a third party heatsink/fan combo render your warranty on the processor void? Because that's what it says all over the box and documentation of my Opteron processor. And wouldn't using the heatsink/fan combo that came with the processor be sufficient enough ? I mean, it too has a heatpipe based heatsink, with copper heatpipes.

I finally got my new system on tuesday, I was busy assembling it for a few days, ironing out minor issues on the way, that's why I wasn't able to come online.
My motherboard is great for overclocking, it has inbuilt features that support it. I just need to get a graphics card and then my computer will be ready to go. Would you believe it, these guys are charging up to 12,000 Rs. for the 6600GT based cards ! That's about 266 $, nearly as much as the Opteron 165 costs. Incidentally, I got the Opteron for Rs. 17,250, that's about 383 $, but the price seems ok to me, after calculating the duties and stuff, but for the 6600GT, even after the duties, the price should come up to 6,000 Rs. ( 133 $ ), but these guys are charging double the price straightaway ! Now I am left with 2 options - either get a 6600GT from singapore through some business contact of my uncle's and forego the warranty on it, or get a vanilla 6600 based card from the local market. Both the options would cost me about 6,000 bucks, after calculating all the taxes. Till then, I have to make do with my current old system.

[Lonsgard]

SuperPi can be found here: http://www.xtremesystems.com/pi/

The Heatsink that comes with the Opteron is almost as good as the SI-120, I'd recommend using it. The only reason I use the SI-120 is that my opteron did not come with the heatsink (I bought it used).

You don't need to use the heatsink to keep the warrenty, but you must have the heatsink (which you'll send in with the processor) if you want to make warranty claims. However, as said before, the stock heatsink is very good and it isn't worth spending 40 bucks for a slightly better one.

[reachrishikh]

Great! Then I can start overclocking asap ! I was waiting for some good cooling solution before doing it, but if you say the heatsink/fan that came with the AMD are good, then its just wonderful.
From what I gather the Super PI seems to be some utility to monitor the CPU heat, voltage and stuff. But I don't need to worry. As I mentioned, my motherboard features a great support for overclocking and has a lot of nvidia and asus software utilities bundled for monitoring all that stuff.

BTW, I just got an MSI 6600 TD PCIe 128 MB graphics card, installed it and my system is up and running fine now. Spent the whole night installing the OS and drivers and a couple of apps as well. I am using my old PC right now as I just have a single monitor, keyboard and mouse to share between the two systems, and nothing has been loaded on the new one yet. It's 6:30 in the morning. God ! I was up all night. The time just seems to fly by. I'm really tired right now but they're airing Dude, Where's my Car ? on Star Movies, watching and recording it alongside. Maybe I'll just set it on the scheduler and go and get some shut eye ;) Yawwwnnnn ! Need to get back to the installation of stuff after I get up. Its a long day up ahead.

[Lonsgard]

Super PI is used to test out your machine to make sure it's stable when you overclock. Also note that overclocking is risky - not really to damaging your hardware, but if you overclock past what you can handle, often times your windows installation will get corrupted and you'll have to reinstall it all. So just keep that in mind.

[reachrishikh]

That's why I haven't started my experiments yet. I'm waiting to install all the necessary applications, then I will burn a Norton Ghost image on a DVD, and I'm ready to do whatever I wish on my computer! If anything goes wrong, any OS file gets corrupt, or system starts getting too slow, just pop in the dvd and voila ! the system is as good as new and I'm ready to experiment again.:D :p

[Lonsgard]

That's an excellent strategy. (Which I used to do). Now, I just hope for the best :)

Other tips:

Set your PCIe bus to 101mhz or something, often times they don't lock correctly when at 100mhz.

Don't plug hard drives into the first SATA slot (use 2-4). I think (could just be an urban legend) that many times the first slot doesn't lock correctly when you change the bus speed.

[reachrishikh]

What's locking ? Please pardon my inquisitiveness, but I've never overclocked anything before, so I'm not much familiar with terms relevant to it. I've attached my OS-apps HDD ( bootable partition ) on the first SATA slot and my data HDD on the second. Everything's working fine up till now, I've installed the OS and most of the required apps, and I've also transfered my data from this system to the new one. But then, I haven't touched the overclocking yet.
Actually, I'm a bit scared. You see, when I first plugged in all the hardware and started the sytem, I went straight to the BIOS and changed the CAS# latency for memory from 3 to 2. This is what I've done in my old system as well, and it runs fine. But as soon as I saved and rebooted here, it began giving me a memory beep code. I had to open the tower up and reset the BIOS jumper before I could get the sucker up again. So I'm just a bit scared here, although my motherboard manual says it has advanced features that revert the BIOS back to original settings in case the system crashes due to overclocking experiments.

[Lonsgard]

It's probably best to not overclock until you're comfortable with your system, that or just start really mild.

When you overclock Athlons, you do so by increasing the system bus speed. For your chip, it starts at 200mhz.
The CPU runs at a multipler (9x in this case), and the Ram runs 1:1 (for 400mhz effective since it is DDR)

Both of those are good to increase, since they can usually run stable at faster speeds.

Other things, such as PCI express bus and SATA bus need to run at their specified speeds, so we have to lock them, so that they don't increase as you overclock the system bus. For the PCIe bus, in many cases, it is set to one half the system bus, unless you set it to something else, which will lock it there.

[reachrishikh]

I finally overclocked my system ( read processor ) today. Although I didn't reach anywhere near your results Lonsgard, I still consider it a start. Did you note what are the processor and motherboard temperatures in your system right after booting up to win on your overclocked settings? And what is the core voltage of your system, just want to compare notes here. Mine are 37 C / 98 F, 40 C / 104 F and 1.36 V respectively. I just managed to get the Bus speed to 228 MHz x 9, i.e. 2052 MHz in all. I set the bus to 232 ( while still experimenting ) and it didn't go past the 'press del to enter setup' screen at all. So I restarted the system, and lowered it to 230. The system booted and got to my logon screen, but restarted immediately. This happened a couple of times, so I reset it to 228 MHz. It seems to be running fine there. Also, I downloaded the Super PI thing you mentioned. I didn't try and run 2 instances of it at first, but I tried doing it after I was testing out my system at 212 x 9 = 1908 MHz ( I was increasing it in 2 MHz increments ). The second instance gave me some error saying - NOT CONVERGENT IN SQR05. I tried running it at all levels - 16K to 4M. I was using 2M and 4M in my regular tests. What level did you use to test your system ? Later, at 228 MHz, it quit completely and gave me an error - NOT EXACT IN ROUND. But the system seemed to be running fine and I encoded a 20 min MPEG 1 file to DivX with highest compression and it went without a hitch. Well, what do you think ? Do you think I need to increase the core voltage to proceed with the overclocking further ? But the voltage is set to auto in the BIOS. I have also set the PCIe bus to 101MHz as you suggested. Let me know what are your views on this. I just checked my voltage again and it seems to be fluctuating badly between 1.2960 and 1.3920. I think I might have to decrease the bus speed again. It wasn't fluctuating like this earlier, even when I ran Super PI or the divx encoding. Waiting for your reply.

[Lonsgard]

My system runs at ~47C, at 1.45 volts for stability.

Opterons should run at 1.35 volts at stock speed. If your voltage is dropping, it sounds like you might have a power supply issue.

[reachrishikh]

Oh no, my voltage isn't dropping, it runs very stable at 1.3440 and 1.3600, it keeps switching between the two. I found out that the voltage starts to fluctuate when I'm online. Yesterday, after getting offline, I checked it again, and it had stabilised back to normal. I took the system bus to 225 MHz, its running there now, and I went online again, to test it out, and the voltage started behaving again. And I've got a 400 W power supply, from a reputed brand ( reputed here ).
Wow, your system runs pretty hot then, mine never goes past 44C, even after overclocking, and it only goes that high during intense use.
Anyway, know how I can push the clock speeds further ? Do I need to change the core voltage to manual. If the Opteron is supposed to run at 1.35 V stock speed, as is mentioned on the AMD site, wouldn't 1.45 V fry the processor ?

[Lonsgard]

More voltage (to a point) gives the CPU more stability, allowing to run faster, but it creates more heat and shortens the life of the chip (say, from 15 to 10 years, which is something I can handle). I don't recommend raising the voltage, unless you know what you're doing and are confident in your cooling.

However, I think your overclock is limited by your memory. When you crank the bus up from 200 to 225, your ram is now trying to run at 450mhz instead of 400mhz. You can set a divider in the bios, so that your memory will run at a slower speed. (It will be called memory speed, or something, you want to change it from 400 to 266 or something like that).

[reachrishikh]

I don't think I'll touch the voltage right now, its set to auto anyway.
As for the memory, I think you are right. The memory speeds were also set to auto initially, but as I was overclocking, I noticed that at one increment of the bus speed, the memory speed had dropped to 333 MHz, and I felt a decrease in the overall speed of the system on boot up. So I rebooted, set the memory speed to manual and set it back to 400 MHz. So I will reduce the memory speed to 333 or 266 and see if it solves the problem, and let you know of the results. What speed have you got on your memory ? Man, this overclocking thing is exciting !

[Lonsgard]

One other thing - you should be able to adjust your Hyper Transport Multiplier (HTT), I expect its currently at 5x or so, I'd recommend dropping it down to 3x.

[reachrishikh]

Wouldn't that lead to a drop in performance ? I mean, I set the ddr speed back to auto, and I got the bus speed to 275, so far ( I'm gonna increase it further tonight ), and the ddr speed automatically dropped to 266. And immediately, I noticed my system's performance had dropped and the system had become slightly slower than usual, despite the clock speed increase. Did you face the same problem as well or is it just my imagination ?

[Lonsgard]

The HTT speed is more or less irrelevant, but needs to be kept below 1000. (which is it's default - 5x200), If you can get your bus up to 300, then 3x300 = 900 which is plenty fast.

I've noticed no performance loss with a lower HTT, since it never gets used to capacity.

Ram wise, you'll want to experiment with it. In general, with athlon 64s, CPU speed makes the biggest difference, so the best strategy is to run your ram as slow as possible, until you can get your CPU as fast as possible. Then slowly increase your ram as far as you can.

[reachrishikh]

Success ! At last ! Finally, I got my system to the limits. Its now running at 285 Mhz x 9, DDR at 266 MHz ( it wont go above that ) with core voltage 1.40. I tried to take it above 285 by setting the voltage to 1.425, but in windows it wouldn't accept the voltage and kept running at 1.4, so I couldn't get the bus speed above 285, that's the maximum it will go. I don't want to increase the core voltage above 1.428, because it is not recommended to raise the voltage above 5 % of the recommended setting, in this case 1.35. So it brings an end to my experimentation. You have been very helpful all this time Lonsgard, and please accept my thanks. Now, my system is running faster than I expected, thanks to the ASUS A8N SLI Deluxe, the overclocker friendly motherboard, and to you, Lonsgard, the friendly overclocker. Cheers !

[Lonsgard]

Congradulations :)