Production and Transport

[Lannes]

Little as we know about how the game will work I suppose it's safe to assume that there will be an element of raw material and finished goods production and transport. The way this works out may well be my main consideration for playing the game or not.

The point is that though it is reasonable for a town or village to draw most of its resources from its immediate surroundings, a city of considerable size would import most from a region and an imperial city from all over the nation and beyond.

I wonder if CotN will model this in one way or another. Will we be able, for instance, to develop outlying towns and nation wide road systems :) , or will this be sacrificed "for gameplay purposes" :eek: ?

Lannes

[G-Force]

It would be very interesting to devellop roads between cities (and not just spending some money, it would take time as well). Managing the 'suburbs' of our city would be very fun. If it all can't fit on a single map, we could use 9 maps combined in a matrix of 3x3. This would give immense city building options :)

G-Force

[mouse]

Trade routes in the ancient world weren't actually roads :p So building roads between cities other than your own just wasn't done :D Besides for security sake one didn't make it any easier for enemy troops to attack :)

[EmperorJay]

There was one, big, easy-to-travel-along road in Egypt though.. the Nile! The Nile was used for almost all travel, except by the very poor.

[Lannes]

Trade routes in the ancient world weren't actually roads :p So building roads between cities other than your own just wasn't done :D Besides for security sake one didn't make it any easier for enemy troops to attack :)

I suppose so. I'm not particularly concerned with the "infrastructure" itself, but rather with the consequences for city design. IMHO raw material production and transport should not have too much of an impact on it. That would be fine for a supposedly self-sufficient village or town, but not for a city.

Lannes

[Josh]

Trade routes in the ancient world weren't actually roads :p So building roads between cities other than your own just wasn't done :D

This is why Rome is such a better civilization :P

[Nero Would]

The point is that though it is reasonable for a town or village to draw most of its resources from its immediate surroundings, a city of considerable size would import most from a region and an imperial city from all over the nation and beyond.

I wonder if CotN will model this in one way or another. Will we be able, for instance, to develop outlying towns and nation wide road systems :) , or will this be sacrificed "for gameplay purposes" :eek: ?

Lannes
I think all the citybuilders (at least as far back as my first - Caesar III) have attempted to model this. It's just that in those games you build one city at a time. Some are small cities with local food, raw materials and some manufactured goods that can be exported. Some are large cities that import food, raw materials and some manufactured goods.

I think the main change that you are asking for is that the player should get to choose what cities to build where, and what industries they should specialise in. That would indeed be an interesting change, it would expand the scope of the game from city builder to nation builder. I haven't seen anything so far that suggests this is what COTN will be, but who knows? I, for one, would be happy to try a next generation city builder for now, and leave nation building for a future game.

[EmperorJay]

It has been said that CotN will be a combination of citybuilding, empire building and real life simulation, along with some roleplaying elements since you assume the role of Pharaoh.

Question one of the FAQ (http://www.immortalcities.com/cotn/gameinfo/faq.php#fq1)

Edit: So nation builder sounds about the same as empire builder in this case.

[Jayhawk]

In Egypt the Nile is definitely the No. 1 Road.

Makes me wonder if you will have to build your own trade ships, though.

[Lannes]

I think the main change that you are asking for is that the player should get to choose what cities to build where, and what industries they should specialise in. That would indeed be an interesting change, it would expand the scope of the game from city builder to nation builder.

Something like that, though you make it sound rather ambitious :) . For me, the ideal city builder would encourage the development of a "catchment area" with smaller settlements. Each of these (like the city) would indeed be focusing on the production of one or perhaps two raw materials. Of course the city could still be the place for finished goods production and the main trade center.

Lannes

[Keith]

Being able to specify what city goes where, what it produces sort of takes the "game" out of the game. It's like those the old request for "programmable walkers" in the previous citybuilders; people kept trying to turn the game in a simulation. They wanted the ability to tell the walker where to go and how to get there.

It's more challenging and interesting if you are presented with a set of predetermined conditions and you have to deal with them. That's where the challenge lies!
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[Jayhawk]

However, it would still be a challenge if not every city could produce everything, but that it's produce would be based on it's location. So you'd need to be down in Aswan to produce granite, or in the delta to have access to lots of papyrus. Copper would only be mineable in certain locations, but you would still be able to gear a city to the production of it's local resources and set them up for trade.

[Lannes]

It's more challenging and interesting if you are presented with a set of predetermined conditions and you have to deal with them. That's where the challenge lies!

Challanges are nice, but there are constraints. Bottom line is that in the end, IMHO realistic layouts should work and unrealistic ones shouldn't. It seems to me, then, that the challenges too should arise from a realistic set of predetermined conditions. As far as production and transport are concerned that means a realistically proportioned geography and distribution of natural resources.

Lannes

[Keith]

Challanges are nice, but there are constraints. Bottom line is that in the end, IMHO realistic layouts should work and unrealistic ones shouldn't. It seems to me, then, that the challenges too should arise from a realistic set of predetermined conditions. As far as production and transport are concerned that means a realistically proportioned geography and distribution of natural resources.

Lannes
I have no complaints about "realism" to a degree, but I don't want a game that is all realism and no fun to play. It must remain a "game" and not a "simulator."
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[Lannes]

It must remain a "game" and not a "simulator."

I've heard past city builders described as mathematical puzzles with a cultural flavour. Probably a justified qualification. Personally I would not mind at all abandoning this for a simulated society with all its complexity and unpredictability, where interaction would be intuitive rather than based on deterministic rules.

Lannes

[Keith]

I've heard past city builders described as mathematical puzzles with a cultural flavour. Probably a justified qualification. Personally I would not mind at all abandoning this for a simulated society with all its complexity and unpredictability, where interaction would be intuitive rather than based on deterministic rules.

Lannes
Simulations tend to run on their own which would probably make for a very long and dull program. I, for one, would grow tired of just sitting there watching simulated people go through their virtual daily lives with little or nothing to do.

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[Keith]

http://www.civilization.ca/civil/egypt/images/loglife2.gifTransportation

The Nile River was the highway that joined the country together. Up until the nineteenth century, travel by land was virtually unknown. Ships and boats were the main means of transporting people and goods around the country. Egyptian watercraft had a high stern and bow, and by the New Kingdom, they were equipped with cabins at both ends. The prevailing winds blew south, propelling boats travelling in that direction, while boats heading north relied on the current and oars. http://www.civilization.ca/civil/egypt/images/life18.jpg (http://www.civilization.ca/civil/egypt/images/life02b.jpg) http://www.civilization.ca/civil/egypt/images/life51a.jpg (http://www.civilization.ca/civil/egypt/images/life51b.jpg)



The simplest type of boat used in ancient Egypt was the skiff, made from papyrus reeds that were tied together. Since the reeds are filled with air pockets, they are particularly buoyant. Skiffs were used for fishing and hunting game in the marshes, or for travelling short distances.

Large wooden ships (http://www.civilization.ca/civil/egypt/images/freen4b.jpg) were equipped with square sails and oars. Their planks, held together with rope, expanded in the water, making the vessel watertight. Acacia wood was used in Lower Nubia to build the ships that transported massive blocks of stone from the Aswan district to the building sites of the pyramids, temples and cities along the Nile. Ships could travel with ease up and down the Nile from the delta region to the First Cataract at Aswan.

http://www.civilization.ca/civil/egypt/images/life16a.jpg (http://www.civilization.ca/civil/egypt/images/life16b.jpg)



Replica of a model barge found in Tutankhamun's tomb



http://www.civilization.ca/civil/egypt/images/life17a.jpg (http://www.civilization.ca/civil/egypt/images/life17b.jpg)
Tutankhamun's royal ship


Boats also served a ceremonial purpose. They were used to move images of gods from temple to temple, and to transport the mummified bodies of royals and nobles across the Nile to their tombs on the west bank. Even the sun god travelled by boat (the solar bark) on his daily journey across the sky. Today, the Egyptians still cross the Nile by boat. The vessel they use is the fellucca (http://www.civilization.ca/civil/egypt/images/geog10b.jpg), a small boat with a large triangular sail.

The roads in ancient Egypt were little more than paths. To get around on land, people walked, rode donkeys or travelled by wagon. They carried goods on their head, but the donkeys and wagons hauled heavier loads. Camels were unknown in Egypt until the end of the pharaonic period.

The wheel was probably introduced into Egypt by the Hyksos, an Asiatic people who invaded the country and ruled it in the fifteenth and sixteenth dynasties. The Hyksos most likely had horse-drawn chariots (http://www.civilization.ca/civil/egypt/images/govt04b.jpg), which were used in warfare. New Kingdom pharaohs and nobles adopted this mode of transportation for hunting expeditions, but it was not used for travel by the common people.

© Canadian Museum of Civilization Corporation

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[Eddy]

Keith, I really like the information you post here. Keep it up!