Housing

[G-Force]

What sort of system will we get? The system of Pharaoh were the common evolve into the elite, or Zeus were the 2 are seperated. I know the militairy will be handled differently but there are nobles and I assume they will not be shacking up with the flood plain workers.

Another question is how many people will go into a house and what will they need to get to the maximum level?? In this area I foun Zeus to be a disappointed, Emperor was better at this :)

G-Force

[Ineti]

One of the few things that frustrated me about Pharaoh is that when I wanted to build an elite housing block, I always had to start with huts and build them from there. I couldn't just plunk down a row of apartments or an estate or two, along with the required support.

It would be nice to see regular housing and elite housing separated.

[EmperorJay]

I'm wondering how much control we will actually have over housing development... I mean, if the people will get to have their own will, no one wants to have the size of their house limited.

[Afterburner]

One of the few things that frustrated me about Pharaoh is that when I wanted to build an elite housing block, I always had to start with huts and build them from there. I couldn't just plunk down a row of apartments or an estate or two, along with the required support.

If you build the support first, it doesn't really matter. I'm playing through Caesar 3 again, and in my most recent mission have been developing Patrician housing to increase population without increasing unemployment. As long as the support is there, you can put down one tile of housing and it will develop into Patrician housing within a few minutes. Same holds true with Pharaoh.

[Keith]

One of the few things that frustrated me about Pharaoh is that when I wanted to build an elite housing block, I always had to start with huts and build them from there. I couldn't just plunk down a row of apartments or an estate or two, along with the required support.

It would be nice to see regular housing and elite housing separated.
It didn't bother me at all. Just being able to plunk something down makes the game too easy, IMHO.
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[Afterburner]

Just being able to plunk something down makes the game too easy, IMHO.

Yeah, same here. I thought Zeus advanced the City Building Series in some really nifty ways, but I also thought that there were a couple of steps backwards. "Elite Housing" plots that you could just plop down wherever was one of those backwards steps.

I mean, if you get Luxury Palaces or Palatial Estates on Caesar 3 or Pharaoh, respectively, you've actually achieved a fairly challenging accomplishment. Reaching Estates or Heavenly Compounds in Zeus or Emperor, by comparison, was significantly easier. It felt very anti-climactic going from Pharaoh to Zeus in this respect.

[Keith]

Yeah, same here. I thought Zeus advanced the City Building Series in some really nifty ways, but I also thought that there were a couple of steps backwards. "Elite Housing" plots that you could just plop down wherever was one of those backwards steps.

I mean, if you get Luxury Palaces or Palatial Estates on Caesar 3 or Pharaoh, respectively, you've actually achieved a fairly challenging accomplishment. Reaching Estates or Heavenly Compounds in Zeus or Emperor, by comparison, was significantly easier. It felt very anti-climactic going from Pharaoh to Zeus in this respect.
True. The Elite housing concept does have some aspects of challenge to them in that they too have to be evolved to meet various mission goals, so it was not all on the downside.
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[Josh]

I thought the elite housing was a very good idea because there are many times in C3 you would have a well working city, then accidentily have your docks import one luxury good, and have the wrong market lady take it, and then turn the bulk of your citys workforce into lazy patricians for a few months.

[Azeem]

I liked the way they seperated Elite and Common housing in Zeus and Emperor. A makes it a lot more interesting. However, there was a problem that it was a bit easy to get Elites to upgrade. The elites should be A LOT pickier in their demands. Rather than simply "devolving" (which doesn't make sense unless CotN allows you to seize their assets :D ) all residents in an elite house should simply move to a new city, leaving a vacant lot rather than a downgraded house. That way, you'll have to try all over again to attract elites. :)

[Nero Would]

Elite houses were easier to create and evolve in Zeus than Caesar III or Pharaoh. However, I don't think that was because Zeus allowed you to build elite housing without evolving it from common housing. As afterburner says, as long as you have the goods and services available, you can build a common house in Caesar III or Pharaoh and have it evolve very quickly to elite status. I think it's just that having the required goods and services for elite housing is a little easier in Zeus.

I hope COTN will be closer to the harder-to-meet elite housing requirements of Caesar III and Pharaoh. But I would still prefer to be able to decide whether to build common or elite housing. Otherwise I have to stoop to tricks like putting statues behind houses to stop them evolving.

[EmperorJay]

I thought the elite housing was a very good idea because there are many times in C3 you would have a well working city, then accidentily have your docks import one luxury good, and have the wrong market lady take it, and then turn the bulk of your citys workforce into lazy patricians for a few months.

The problem here lies not in the seperation of elite and common housing, but in the stupidity of the market lady. Improved markets and warehouses and roadblocks have solved this problem.

Personnaly, I like the idea of having the common and elite housing seperated, but I would like to see it made harder to evolve the housing, especially the elite housing.

[Keith]

The problem here lies not in the seperation of elite and common housing, but in the stupidity of the market lady. Improved markets and warehouses and roadblocks have solved this problem.

Personnaly, I like the idea of having the common and elite housing seperated, but I would like to see it made harder to evolve the housing, especially the elite housing.
I think that was managed somewhat in Emperor, with the food quality feature, high appeal, entertainment, and multiple religious access requirements.

Evolving large palaces in Caesar III still remains the most difficult, IMHO.
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[Jayhawk]

Depends on whether you allow yourself to use gatehouses or not, Keith ;)

[Lord Huh]

You can't start at the top...you have to grow......Lord Huh says so

[G-Force]

I find it also a bit unrealistic that someone who used to work on the floodplaines now lives in a palatial estate. In Zeus this was handled by the separation of elite and common because new (rich) people arrived for the new elite housing.

I agree that it should be harder to achieve the maximum level of elite. I mean these people are snobs so they'll need a whole lot and then some more :)

G-Force

[Jaguar]

Elite housing was definitly too easy in Emperor and Zeus. It was just so easy to get all the items in place. I liked having to provide so much more in terms of entertainment, religious coverage, luxury items, two kinds of wine, et cetera and watching my little tent turn into a palace.

I think the "easiness" came from having the agora/multiple market ladies looking for items. In Pharaoh and Caesar, the same market lady had to look for all the items wheres in Zeus and Emperor the different stalls had individual buyers that would provide luxury items for sale when the vendor cart went out.

Also having two or three vendors go out (depending on the market square) made distribution a lot easier as well.

[Afterburner]

Elite houses were easier to create and evolve in Zeus than Caesar III or Pharaoh. However, I don't think that was because Zeus allowed you to build elite housing without evolving it from common housing. As afterburner says, as long as you have the goods and services available, you can build a common house in Caesar III or Pharaoh and have it evolve very quickly to elite status. I think it's just that having the required goods and services for elite housing is a little easier in Zeus.

Yeah, upon reflection, I suppose you're right. I just remember getting my Elite housing up to Estates level for the first time in Zeus and thinking "That was it?" Also seemed to be less levels of Elite Housing in Zeus and Emperor vs. C3 and Pharaoh.

Caesar 3 had 8 levels of Elite Housing
Pharaoh had 6
Zeus had 4
Emperor had 5

[Elvenwarrior2001]

Hmm...do houses go up like in C3 and then god "down" like they go: "Oh...we're not this rich anymore, let's tear down our mansion into a hut again." lol

Elven

[Ammurit]

I find it also a bit unrealistic that someone who used to work on the floodplaines now lives in a palatial estate. In Zeus this was handled by the separation of elite and common because new (rich) people arrived for the new elite housing.

I agree that it should be harder to achieve the maximum level of elite. I mean these people are snobs so they'll need a whole lot and then some more :)

G-Force

I agree. As silly as this may sound, I often think of our beloved city builders while driving through the area I live in. I notice housing areas that look nice, others that don't, parks, service areas and so on. Within the past five years or so, a lot of people have flocked to this area, with lots of money, to buy houses, which has resulted in a lot of new housing construction. You may see, on opposite sides of the very same street, older houses which strike me as very "common", while the new houses across the street within their walled and gated communities just smack of having been built with the newly arrived "elite" in mind.

[Jayhawk]

I think I actually prefer the option to designate housing as high/low level over the "OMG where did my workforce suddenly go to. Oh no, that stupid Market lady decided to buy wine again" option.

Now the option to set market stalls would work well enough alone, as it allows a fair way to decide whether a certain suburb would have access to resource X needed for housing to go to level Y. Of course this fails if you mix the two housing levels (but then again, I'm not one that mixed regular and patrician level housing).

A very different way to go, is to be able to set a maximum development level on housing. Let's keep it simple and say a toggle between regular and patrician.

All housing would need to be evolved all the way from scratch (so yes, you'll need to get all the basic stuff in palce as you would for C3) but you'd be able to grow your population more carefully and handle the appearance of patrician level housing more accurately, as no rogue palatial estates would suddenly appear ;) .

[ChickenGaveMeABadCoupon]

now, you have to remember that CotN wont have those street walkers which help the house evolve, its been mentioned that this method has been trashed, now you gotta wonder how exactly do the houses evolve, or do they even evolve, maybe there's just a wide selection of housing that you can build.

i think that houses might evolve desirability-wise, well maybe

[mouse]

We can only hope that the "market lady" is a thing of the past (she drove most us bonkers) :D It will be interesting to see how food and other goods distribution is handled ;) In the real world elite housing would have servants go to the market to buy food and goods which they might bring home or have delivered. While the common folks would send the lady of the house to the market daily to get food and goods :rolleyes: If each neighborhood had a market ala Emperor would folks from common housing walk across the map to get goodies not available in their local market also ala Emperor :D

[Keith]

Depends on whether you allow yourself to use gatehouses or not, Keith ;)
Always use gatehouses or some sort of road break in Caesar III. Without them it's hard to control your housing.
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[Jayhawk]

Without them it's hard to control your housing.
But possible, and definitely more of a challenge ;)

I remember mostly breaking up a town in smaller villages and trucking produce from warehouse to warehouse. Even up to only having vinyards connected to the patrician district.

However, from the screenshots it appears the artisans are selling their produce themselves. This could suggest a certain range which a houseowner will travel (over roads?) to get a certain product. It could then mean bye-bye to large areas filled with lines of potters and carts lugging them to market related warehouses.

[G-Force]

Yet people want item, but don't want to live next to the place where item A is made.

Another thing, if the creator sells it, what happens when you import the item? Will you have to spread it out over warehouses?

G-Force

[Jayhawk]

Good points.
I guess they will wander over to a nearby potter, without having to have the potter live next to them. It may also be that the possible negative effect of workshops increases as there are more of them, i.e. people don't mind one potter, but are annoyed with five of them. ;)

As for the imports, my guesses are

either we will still have market sellers
people will be able to buy stuff at a nearby warehouse
traders will be more like peddlers and sell they're stuff to the people rather than the town

[GillB]

I think I actually prefer the option to designate housing as high/low level over the "OMG where did my workforce suddenly go to. Oh no, that stupid Market lady decided to buy wine again" option.
I agree

A very different way to go, is to be able to set a maximum development level on housing. Let's keep it simple and say a toggle between regular and patrician.
I like that idea - would be even better if it could be set for every level of housing.

While the common folks would send the lady of the house to the market daily to get food and goods
This would be a lot more realistic - no supermarket deliveries in those days, sadly.

[Keith]

Average housing example:

http://www.civilization.ca/civil/egypt/images/loglife2.gifShelter


Most houses were made of brick. The banks of the Nile provided the mud used to make bricks. Brick makers collected mud, added straw and water to it as needed, and stomped it with their feet until it reached the right consistency. The mixture was then placed in a mould. Once shaped, the bricks were removed from the mould and left on the ground to dry in the sun.

Egyptian peasants would have lived in simple mud-brick homes containing only a few pieces of furniture: beds, stools, boxes and low tables.

http://www.civilization.ca/civil/egypt/images/life13.gif

Cross-section of a typical house in the workers’ village at Deir el-Medina. The workers who built the tombs in the Valley of the Kings lived in this village.
Drawing: Catherine Fitzpatrick.

Craftworkers lived in one- or two-storey flat-roofed dwellings made of mud bricks. The walls and roof would have been covered with plaster and painted. Inside, there was a reception room, a living room, bedrooms and a cellar in which food and beverages were stored. Food was prepared in an outdoor kitchen equipped with a mud-brick oven. Stairs on the exterior of the house led to a roof-top terrace.

The homes of the wealthy were larger and more luxurious. Spacious reception and living rooms opened onto a central garden courtyard with a fish pond and flowering plants. Each bedroom had a private bathroom, and the walls, columns and ceilings were painted with beautiful designs inspired by nature. Elaborate and highly decorated furniture included beds, chairs, boxes and tables. Painted clay pots and vessels, as well as alabaster bowls and jars, were also found in the homes of the nobles.

http://www.civilization.ca/civil/egypt/images/life14a.jpg (http://www.civilization.ca/civil/egypt/images/life14b.jpg)

House in a garden with pools.
Painting: Winnifred Neeler, Royal Ontario Museum

Royal palaces, frequently cities in themselves, included separate residences, a temple and a workers’ village.

© Canadian Museum of Civilization Corporation

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[Keith]

Wealthy housing:

http://www.civilization.ca/civil/egypt/images/life15c.jpg

http://www.civilization.ca/civil/egypt/images/life15a.jpg

http://www.civilization.ca/civil/egypt/images/life15b.jpg

http://www.civilization.ca/civil/egypt/images/life15d.jpg

© Canadian Museum of Civilization Corporation

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[Hanarky]

Being able to evolve houses has always been one of my delights in playing CB's. I would like to see them evolve from huts to palaces. I like Jayhawks idea to be able to set the max. housing level. What about having little shops for different goods and placing them in the neighbourhood, that shall get delivered with certain goods and then let the common people or servants (for elite houses) catch the goods. Give them a certain walk range, till where they go to fetch the goods. This way you can regulate and separate worker areas from elite areas. Yup, single specialised shops may be far better than centralised marketplaces with all goods available. Then let the manufacturing deliver the goods to their respective shop.

Or having market places for the basic goods, that every common house needs with maybe a marketlady (an intelligent one) and then separate little shops for the more luxuriuos goods, but there the people have to go themself to get them and you place them where you need them.

Hanarky

[G-Force]

Are we going to have house evolution??? Was that mentioned???

It seems now that it arn't really workshops, but rather people making it. So it could be that if you need a farmer that you build a farmers house and that he then goes out and works a field.

With that housing evolution doesn't make sence, you can however provide more services that gives them more time to do their work.

Peasant homes work fields, priests homes take care of temples, guards patroll their home area, ...

Has it been said that there'll be housing evolution???

G-Force

[EmperorJay]

Interesting thoughts.. no housing evolution, but time evolution!

You provide them with a house and instead of making the house bigger, the inhabitants will increase their productivity or quality of what they produce!

[Azeem]

Housing evolution had its upsides and downsides. It was kind of exhilirating to watch houses start from little tiny huts and become huge palaces. But it was kind of wierd to see a giant palace turn into a little hut because it lacked a certain good. I also tended to get ticked off at the rich people because even though they paid high taxes, they were generally parasites to my citiy since they didn't work and took up too much space. :D

[Eddy]

I actually preferred the idea laid down in Zeus where the common and elite housing were two different types. In Pharaoh I always ended up having to deny jewelry to the people which broke my heart since Egyptian jewelry is to die for, but I needed workers, not lazy rich people sleeping all day. I'd like to have some control over housing evolution beyond the "stick a statue in back" method.

[Keith]

I actually preferred the idea laid down in Zeus where the common and elite housing were two different types. In Pharaoh I always ended up having to deny jewelry to the people which broke my heart since Egyptian jewelry is to die for, but I needed workers, not lazy rich people sleeping all day. I'd like to have some control over housing evolution beyond the "stick a statue in back" method.
At least some of the control over elite housing in Emperor was done by controlling the food quality, something that zeus did on a slightly simpler scale. Since there aren't going to be random or destination walkers of old in this game there is obviously some other way of controlling housing evolution at work in the CotN, assuming, of course, that the housing does in fact "evolve."
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[G-Force]

If they do evolve, than with the new people idea, the potters house would not produce any pottery while it is evolving, as the people would now be adding to their house, having no time to make any pottery. It could even take several days to completely paint your house white and add another floor to your house.

G-Force

[Torgen]

I think the idea of using Zeus' marketplaces is the best idea. That was the best new thing in that game, IMO ;)

[EmperorJay]

Well, the system that will be used is a system were the people will go get what they need instead of waiting until they get it from the market lady/bazaar lady/agora pedler.

So, there might be central market places, but I don't think there actually will spawn a walker from it (instead, the citizens will visit it).

[Miut]

Keith,
Have you a Link to more of those House pix? They are amazing. I have been after pix like that for my own database of Egyptian info for a couple of years. If there is a CD or book of them to buy, I'd buy it..
Thanks. :)

[Keith]

Keith,
Have you a Link to more of those House pix? They are amazing. I have been after pix like that for my own database of Egyptian info for a couple of years. If there is a CD or book of them to buy, I'd buy it..
Thanks. :)The site that has those images only has those images and no more. Their main URL is:

http://www.civilization.ca/civil/egypt/egypt_e.html


Try the following link for more info about housing:

http://www.reshafim.org.il/ad/egypt/timelines/topics/housing.htm





http://www.reshafim.org.il/ad/egypt/timelines/topics/pics/garden-model.jpg



A nobleman's estate

http://www.reshafim.org.il/ad/egypt/timelines/topics/pics/houseplan.gif


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[Keith]

Common housing

http://www.reshafim.org.il/ad/egypt/building/workers_flat.gif

Side elevation view and overhead view of floor plan.

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[Keith]

The House of Djehutinefer (http://www.reshafim.org.il/ad/egypt/building/djehutinefer.htm)

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[Miut]

Thanks, Keith. It would be nice if we could exchange our knowledge on Ancient Egypt cos it seems you know proly as much as I do, and proly have as interesting a library of books. ;)

I went to the Canadian site and have to ask - how much of the exhibits near the beginning when you follow the Horus figure are real or are reconstructions as it doesn't say? They are beeautiful whichever they are. :) What a shame it is so far from me - I'd love to visit it! :D

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[eobet]

Hmm... no developer has answered this thread yet.

Well, as long as we get variable sized housing, I'm happy (I disliked the "dumbed down" variant of Zeus and Emperor).

[Nero Would]

A few more thoughts on common and elite housing:

I don't think we know if housing will be divided into two types as in the old city-builders.
Being able to build higher level houses straight away (provided the appropriate goods are available) does not necessarily preclude evolving housing from lower levels to higher levels. One possibility would be to allow you to build the lowest level 1x1, 2x2, 3x3, etc. house, but still allow a 1x1 house to evolve to 2x2 and so on.
My preference would still be for there to be a simple way to limit the evolution of a particular house.

[EmperorJay]

My guess? Houses won't evolve as we know it.

The poor people, like servants and other labourers live in shacks and other low class housing.

The potters, weavers, etc. live above their shops.

The rich live in their villas.

If a Potter has made enough money to buy his own villa, he won't just tear down his shop and start building a villa. He'll just leave his shop and order a villa in a nice neighbourhood.

The only evolving we'll see is just expanding the house. Adding a room for the baby for example.

[Bradius]

You may be right EmperorJay. All things being equal you are probably right as it is expensive to tear down and rebuild an upgraded home in its place, but let me offer another possibility.

There will be better housing going up as your city and economy improves. First all you have is shacks and then better housing. However, often these first shacks will sit in the center of the new city, so likely they will be prime candidates for improvements either by evolution or being torn down and completely rebuilt. Given the poor earlier conditions, my guess is a complete rebuild. Then again, if the city declines, wealthier homes in "bad" areas will be abandoned and filled in with lower class citizens in higher densities, and don't maintain the buildings near as well.

Some interesting possibilities to be sure.

[eobet]

You could build two types of housing the old Pharaoh? I don't remember that.

I would think it odd to be able to build exquisite houses at the click of a button, because sure, this happens in modern times, but when it does, it is to attract rich people from other areas. But here we are, in the middle of the desert, at the dawn of civilization, and there are no rich people to attract.

So, I trust that the rich will build their own large exquisite houses!

I think that that was one of the things which did Pharaoh great (and Zeus/Emperor not so great): Did you crowd the houses together in the beginning, to save on walkers, and have the workers get out to the fields quickly, knowing that later, you might have do major city reconstruction in order to accomodate the rich, or did you start out slow, spacing the houses from the beginning?

Also, some times you had to try to limit the space availible for housing, in order to get lower class workers. This could have been done better, though, and is one of the things I hope they improve, actually: The finest large house held more people than the tightly built lesser houses. That meant that there really was no reason to have poor people. A kind of utopia. Gameplay wise, I'd imagine that large homes were a waste of space and didn't house as many people as a cheaper, smaller one. But perhaps this wasn't so in reality?

I don't think any of the problems associated with growing and shrinking estate sizes were present in Zeus/Emperor, and that was part of the reasons I never played them beyond the demo (the other reason was that without the seasonal effects of the Nile, there didn't seem to be much to continually do in them either).

[G-Force]

I designed a housing block of my own. I always planted that straight away allowing me to get them up to the highest working level. No need for needing 1563 employess right? And that isn't a made up number :eek:

G-Force

[eobet]

Highest luxury level, you mean?

I don't think that is possible in this game, as the people with high status refuse to take low status jobs, like working in fields and carrying water.

Hmm, that answered one of my own questions actually: Hopefully, there won't be jobs for an "unlimited" amount of rich people, so it wouldn't matter if their large houses could contain a lot of people or not, since they all would need jobs to stay rich anyway.

And I do hope you just can't keep building an unlimited amout of temples in order to fill jobs for the upper class...

...perhaps large mansions need to house less people after all! :D

[EmperorJay]

You could build two types of housing the old Pharaoh? I don't remember that.

I would think it odd to be able to build exquisite houses at the click of a button, because sure, this happens in modern times, but when it does, it is to attract rich people from other areas. But here we are, in the middle of the desert, at the dawn of civilization, and there are no rich people to attract.

So, I trust that the rich will build their own large exquisite houses!
You could indeed only build 1 type of housing in Pharaoh.

And a comment on the last line the quote. I think you are right about that, but unlike the previous CBs, they will not build it on the same spot as their pottery kiln was or their jewelry workshop. Instead they will build it (or order to have it build) in another neighbourhood.

Instead of evolving houses, we'll have evolving people. (I think, of course).

[eobet]

Hmm... then they would have to seek out a new empty plot, as they wouldn't be allowed to build on just any empty spot. But what if the plot they choose happens to be a place where you wanted a cheap workforce?

Ouch, back two the two different types of housing/plots again! :eek:

A developer, please, post an update on this matter! This is agonizing!

It would be nice to know in advance, as there has developed a whole science of city block building on the Pharaoh Heaven forums. They have a really cool way of showing it too:

http://caesar3.heavengames.com/cgi-bin/caeforumscgi/display.cgi?action=ct&f=25,2237,0,20

And here's the editor:

http://pharaoh.heavengames.com/strategy/pharaohglyph.shtml

Anyway, building city blocks in Pharaoh was very challenging, and I do hope it remains that way in Children of the Nile.

[eobet]

Hah, wait, I saw a solution to my own question: A rich man looking to build a new house won't build on a plot that doesn't have easy access to temples, luxuries and entertainment (ie. a very high land value).

Wee! Back to only one type of housing plots yet again. :p

[G-Force]

Highest luxury level, you mean?

I mean the level right before they change from a 2x2 to a 3x3. It is technically impossible for them to expand their homes to that size. They will work until I tell them they can die ;)

G-Force

[Master Builder]

Have 4 different "housing"
1: Lowest level peasants and the like
2: Common Workers Huts
3: Advanced Workers Huts (scribes etc)
4: Noblemen/Miltary (because most noble males were officers.

[NeilV]

Have 4 different "housing"
1: Lowest level peasants and the like
2: Common Workers Huts
3: Advanced Workers Huts (scribes etc)
4: Noblemen/Miltary (because most noble males were officers.

This would be quite good if you could zone areas (Similar to sim city) to something like this then allow the people to build in their selected area.

[Tony Leier]

Lots of discussion in this thread. I was finding the Pharaoh vs. Zeus housing discussion fascinating too, since I worked on that back when.

Anyway, back to CotN. I think I'll just throw out some info quickly (I'm a bit busy) for you all. Overall, the housing and employment system is quite different from prior titles, so it's a little hard for me to compare the two for you.

- There are no market ladies. People shop for what they need themselves. And they go get services they need themselves. There isn't any 'access' walker or concept.
- As far as types of housing, if you take a look at the Characters info (http://www.immortalcities.com/cotn/gameinfo/characters.php), you might notice how all of the people live in buildings associated with their jobs or social class. Homes are of all different sizes and qualities, with higher social classes living in better homes.
- Depending on profession, people work in their homes, or go work at harvesting some resource, or work at a government building (like a School, or Hospital), for example.
- Most homes don't 'evolve' in the classical sense, though they do change in appearance and quality as the fortunes of the homeowners wax and wane.
- Townhouses, the homes of the nobles, have a more detailed system of evolution (not exactly evolution like you're used to, but similar in concept.) As a noble's income and savings increase, they can improve their home in a variety of ways. As they improve their home, they are able to secure more income, and that builds upon itself.
- Among the many homes, you can classify them into 3 basic categories. The townhouses like I describe above, private family homes- like shopkeepers or farmhouses- that are made of simple mudbrick by the residents, and homes for government workers, built by government employees out of higher quality bricks.
- As far as how you build all this, again it's a different approach from prior title, and one of those things it's much easier to demonstrate than talk about. You basically place a building foundation for a type of worker or profession that you want, and someone will build the home and move in. Assuming that people are willing to become that profession. People migrate between professions and homes based on their own happiness in their current one, the relative social classes of the profession, and a couple of other factors to create a nice migration web.

There's probably more to say, but I've got to get back to work.

[Jayl]

Thanks Tony for taking the time out to clarify, you explained it very well where there are only a few questions.

One that struck my eye was:

...and someone will build the home and move in.
By build do you mean the little character actually throws on some elbow grease and builds the home or is it similar to something like Caesar III where there is a sign then they move in the home "pops up". If they truely build it, will it take long for them to build?

Also there is another question I would like to ask, when a house is not able to get the resources they need, too long of a walk to the bazaar ect, does the house devolve back down to the foundations and the people leave or does the house stay up with the little "add ons" the people have built just start to go away and the house becomes condemned or am I way off?

And my final question for now. In Pharaoh and other city-builders up the ladder there were usually wells and/or water carriers. Will CotN have either? Or does each house have to have people "go down the street and get water from a well" or what?

Thanks for your time.

[Caesar Alan]

Thanks for stopping by Tony. You know how much we love to feed off these titbits :)

Someone (Nero Would ?) suggested that we might see 'more successful' and 'less successful' homes. That seems to be how shops will change over time. The interesting question is whether this change is purely visual (an extra awning here and there), or whether the productivity of the shop/industry can also increase.

One of the last batch of screenshots has some nobles admiring their newly-built pond. It sounds like your nobles will be able to add bits and pieces to their townhouse (a pond here, a personal shrine there, servants' quarters over there) as they become wealthier. They'll still live in a townhouse, it'll just be a more up-market one. And since its inhabitants will be wealthier, they'll presumably pay more tax :D

[Caesar Alan]

Jayl From what's been mentioned elsewhere, I think we do get to see people actually building their houses. I don't think we need to provide them with raw materials for the building process, but I might be wrong.

As to the question of devolution, I doubt that's what we'll see. As far as I can tell, there is no generic housing in CotN. Because all your citizens have jobs to do, their houses double as (for example) farmhouses or workshops. If a citizen has to make a long walk to a shop for something essential, then he/she will make that walk. The problem is that they won't be spending that time working, so the productivity of that household (and presumably therefore its wealth) will decline.

In the extreme case that a family moves out of its home due to extreme poverty, then I suppose it is possible that the house will fall down due to lack of maintenance and need rebuilding should you attract further immigrants later.

[Caesar Alan]

People migrate between professions and homes based on their own happiness in their current one, the relative social classes of the profession, and a couple of other factors to create a nice migration web.

Almost escaped my notice, that one :)

Anyroad, that sounds very interesting, and is more or less as I expected.

I imagine that much of the challenge of the game will be to create a city where you have balanced out the migration web to give a stable labour pool. Presumably at least some of the factors affecting the mechanics of labour migration will be under our control :D

[eobet]

Thank you for the wonderful answers! But, as always, it opens up a new host of questions. :D

- There are no market ladies. People shop for what they need themselves. And they go get services they need themselves. There isn't any 'access' walker or concept.

So, does this mean that the architect and fireman professions are gone? As I mentioned earlier, ahem, it would be fascinating to see a house get up and walk to the architect's office for inspection. :p (But perhaps these two professions were carried over from Caesar and wasn't historically accurate for Egypt?)

- As far as types of housing, if you take a look at the Characters info (http://www.immortalcities.com/cotn/gameinfo/characters.php), you might notice how all of the people live in buildings associated with their jobs or social class. Homes are of all different sizes and qualities, with higher social classes living in better homes.

Hmm... this seems to imply that you never have to deal with unemployment in Children of the Nile. But, as slaves were so common in Egypt, I bet that any beggar on the street would be immedieatly shipped off as a slave instead, so perhaps unemployment isn't historically accurate either? Erm, I only see mention of "servants" so far... slaves were common in Egypt, weren't they?

There's probably more to say, but I've got to get back to work.

Great! I think we all would like to see a beta soon! ;)

[G-Force]

If people can choose their job, will they stop their current one to go live in another house with a better job ( or eqaul ) because it is closer to the required services? In other words will they move somewhere else to have their demands met more easily?

G-Force

[Keith]

Thank you for the wonderful answers! But, as always, it opens up a new host of questions. :D

So, does this mean that the architect and fireman professions are gone? As I mentioned earlier, ahem, it would be fascinating to see a house get up and walk to the architect's office for inspection. :p (But perhaps these two professions were carried over from Caesar and wasn't historically accurate for Egypt?)

Hmm... this seems to imply that you never have to deal with unemployment in Children of the Nile. But, as slaves were so common in Egypt, I bet that any beggar on the street would be immedieatly shipped off as a slave instead, so perhaps unemployment isn't historically accurate either? Erm, I only see mention of "servants" so far... slaves were common in Egypt, weren't they?

Great! I think we all would like to see a beta soon! ;)I believe scribes were probably responsible for the achitect work as they were for a majority of the "professions" of the time. Imhotep, is known today as a great architect, but in his day he was more famous as a physician. He also performed the duties of sage, poet, and architect among others.

Not sure about firemen, but I don't see mention of such a position in the things I have read. The firement from the game Pharaoh were probably included to cover the "prefect" position filled in Caesar III since Pharaoh used a modified Caesar III game engine. I suspect that the city militia did most of the police work and public safety duties.

Slaves seemed to have been a relatively small scale up until the new Kingdom. Slavery in Egypt was different than the slavery we are familiar with from the Roman Empire era up to the Civial War America.

Hem (Hm), generally translated as 'slave' and originally meaning body, was seemingly a person with lessened rights dedicated to a certain task such as the service of a god (since the 1st dynasty) or the royal administration. The hemu are mentioned in the context of private persons only since the end of the Old Kingdom.

Since the Middle Kingdom foreign slaves mainly from Asia became increasingly numerous. They were either prisoners of war or traded by slave merchants. Their period of enslavement in Egypt was often limited. Debt slaves or prisoners of war were at times set free after serving for a certain period.

Part of the slaves were personal servants of individuals. Others belonged to estates of temples and noblemen, often taken during a military campaign or bestowed by the king.

One could become a slave in following manner:

Debt - those unable to pay their debts sold themsevles into servitute.
Punishment - a vizier could sentence a criminal to forced labor.
Voluntary Servitute - people would sell themselves to a temple
War - some were absorbed into the army, others labored in the copper and silver mines of Nubia and Sinai. Lucky ones served on the properties of Pharaoh, nobles and the temples.
By Birth - slaves and children could be passed along as an endowment or will.
Capture - foreigners would be captured illegally and sold into slavery.

Treating slaves well was a moral precept. In the Book of the Dead two of the dead person's virtues recited in order to join the company of the gods among others like not having inflicted pain or not having committed murder are

I have not domineered over slaves
I have not vilified a slave to his master


Freeing slaves was a common practice. Sometimes the former master would adopt the freed slave into his family. Slaves would sometimes win their freedom through their own efforts.

Female slaves seemed to fetch a higher price than male slaves. In one instance female slaves were recorded at the price of 4 deben and 1 kit of silver (41 kit). A kit was about 370 grammes. Males went for half that price.
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[EmperorJay]

I still think that, if there are firemen and the like at all, they'll sit in their office doing administration or something until someone yells: "Fire!". Then they rush out to put out the fire.

About unemployment. When someone's out of a job, they will change profession but that can only happen when there are shortages in other sectors. The only thing that is left is either go beg or work on farms/monuments and altough it appears that there is no unemployment, those people who previously had a job but became a farmer are unhappy and they feel unemployed.

It doesn't matter if you have unemployment or not anyway I think. An unemployed unhappy person is just as worse as an employed happy person. This game is about making people happy instead of evolving houses.

Edit: And of course, thank you again Tony! Though I don't really mind if you'd post less due to work, we know what you're working on! :)

[Jaguar]

If it's being said that the houses get built, wouldn't the bricklayers be building these houses? Then someone else would move in to occupy it and start their own business.

[Keith]

I think back in those days it was pretty much a do-it-yourself effort on building your own house with the help of some friends. I wouldn't think that the average person could afford to pay a bricklayer to do the work.

Some peasant homes were made from mud daubed reeds instead of mud brick.
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[Miut]

Thanks for the info on slaves, Keith. It matches what I've read - that most were prisoners taken in wars, and not proportionally a large part of the population.

Wonder if people who were indigent had the option as in some older cultures of indenturing themselves for a fixed term in order to survive and better their prospects...

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[Tony Leier]

By build do you mean the little character actually throws on some elbow grease and builds the home
Yep



Also there is another question I would like to ask, when a house is not able to get the resources they need, too long of a walk to the bazaar ect, does the house devolve back down to the foundations and the people leave or does the house stay up with the little "add ons" the people have built just start to go away and the house becomes condemned or am I way off?
Depends a bit on the type of home, but that's the gist of it. An abandoned home decays and may eventually go away.



And my final question for now. In Pharaoh and other city-builders up the ladder there were usually wells and/or water carriers. Will CotN have either? Or does each house have to have people "go down the street and get water from a well" or what?
People go an get what they need, or directly high other people (like servants) to do it for them.

[Tony Leier]

So, does this mean that the architect and fireman professions are gone?
Yep, those aren't really appropriate for the society. (The C3 style architect that is. CotN does have educated architect-types to oversee the construction of monuments and such.)


Hmm... this seems to imply that you never have to deal with unemployment in Children of the Nile.
You do, but it's portrayed different. If, for example, a shopkeeper doesn't have enough customers to survice, he'll often resort to living and begging on the street.

But, as slaves were so common in Egypt, I bet that any beggar on the street would be immedieatly shipped off as a slave instead, so perhaps unemployment isn't historically accurate either? Erm, I only see mention of "servants" so far... slaves were common in Egypt, weren't they?
Slaves are one of those interesting questions about ancient egypt. The amount and prevalence of slaves varies widely depending on the era, and experts don't always agree on how common they were within the era. Some accepted generalities are that many slaves were captured foreign soldiers, who were mostly used in mining and projects far from cities, and that most large projects like the pyramids were built by peasants, not slaves. CotN doesn't have any slaves.

[Tony Leier]

If people can choose their job, will they stop their current one to go live in another house with a better job ( or eqaul ) because it is closer to the required services? In other words will they move somewhere else to have their demands met more easily?

They can, assuming they are not satisfied with where they are living currently.

[Tony Leier]

If it's being said that the houses get built, wouldn't the bricklayers be building these houses? Then someone else would move in to occupy it and start their own business.
Depends on the home. If it's a private residence, like a farmhouse or pottery shop, then the future residents build it from materials on hand. If it's the residence for a government worker, like a Scribe or Weaponsmith, then the government (that's you) pre-builds the home from good quaility bricks (that you make) and a bricklayer. It's one of the ways the government entices people to work for them.

As a geographical/historical note, you can build things out of pretty low quality mud bricks in Egypt, since it basically never rains. Though a high flood can come around and do a lot of damage.

[mouse]

Ohhhhhhh Tony all the new infromation sounds so good *drool* Really like the idea of ordinary people building their own houses ;) Don't know how I'll be able to wait months to get my grubby paws on CotN :D

[G-Force]

So much for the 1 developper response per thread. Thank you so much for all the info!!!

G-Force

[eobet]

Ehm, yeah... that theory didn't really work on this forum, but I'm glad it didn't! :D

Absolutely fabulous answers! Thank you very much!

[Miut]

Tony, thanks for the Heads Up once again. I have to say I am totally overwhelemed at how much participation we have here from you. It's marvellous. Long may it continue, I say. ;)

[EmperorJay]

Thank you once again!

[eobet]

Did we get an answer on neutral housing or not? I tried to browse, but its late so my brain got information overload and shut down! :)

But we do know that there's "shop housing" and "rich housing", but look at this (from the Home Lan interview):

For example, if you build a priest’s apartment, the priest will find temples, schools, and so on, in which to work.

So, nobody can become a priest unless you build a house for one? This sounds odd. How do you become a priest, btw? I hope it's not the case of one just "popping up", but actually some rich citizen going through a ritual, or education, which takes time and consumes resources?

But again, it's late... I think I will sleep on this. :cool:

[Keith]

Priests probably do not require a house. They probably live and sleep in the Temple quarters. To create priests you'll probably need schools for education and temples.
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[Jayhawk]

Thanks Tony :)

If it's a private residence, like a farmhouse or pottery shop, then the future residents build it from materials on hand.
Does that mean that once you set up shop, whoever arrives will start building his own house, just where he pleases (probaly close to the action)?

If, for example, a shopkeeper doesn't have enough customers to survice, he'll often resort to living and begging on the street.
One assumes that you keep track of how much he earns begging, and that poor shopkeeper might pack shop and leave town if he fails to get enough to get by on?

So, nobody can become a priest unless you build a house for one? This sounds odd. How do you become a priest, btw?
We still don't know if people arriving in your city already carry skills, although I'm getting the feeling they will. That would mean that once you offer residence for one, one will settle in your city.

[EmperorJay]

Jayhawk, the player designates a spot for a particular building and if that building is a private residence, the future inhabitants will build the houses themselves on the spot you selected.

[Keith]

Housing construction has yet to be confirmed. The interview with Chris on HomeLAN still seems to indicate that you place houses according to his comment about "the type of house you place" determines tha occupation of its occupant.

This could mean that we are still placing pre-fab houses, or it could mean that we are putting down "place-holder" spaces on the map from which the specified housing type will grow.
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[EmperorJay]

I'm quite sure Tony Leier has commented on Housing construction already.. let me see.

Ah yes, found it.

...- Among the many homes, you can classify them into 3 basic categories. The townhouses like I describe above, private family homes- like shopkeepers or farmhouses- that are made of simple mudbrick by the residents, and homes for government workers, built by government employees out of higher quality bricks.
- As far as how you build all this, again it's a different approach from prior title, and one of those things it's much easier to demonstrate than talk about. You basically place a building foundation for a type of worker or profession that you want, and someone will build the home and move in. Assuming that people are willing to become that profession....
You place "space holder" spaces on the map for shops, you actually build houses for the upper class.

The above was from page 3, this is from page 4:
...If it's a private residence, like a farmhouse or pottery shop, then the future residents build it from materials on hand. If it's the residence for a government worker, like a Scribe or Weaponsmith, then the government (that's you) pre-builds the home from good quaility bricks (that you make) and a bricklayer. It's one of the ways the government entices people to work for them...
Seeing who posted this, I see this as quite an official confirmation.

[Keith]

I guess it does. :) I forgot Tony posted that.

[Tony Leier]

Did we get an answer on neutral housing or not? I tried to browse, but its late so my brain got information overload and shut down! :)
I said something somewhere I think. Basically, you don't have neutral housing like in the old games, but there is a form of neutral housing (people that don't work for you or the city have to live somewhere.)


So, nobody can become a priest unless you build a house for one? This sounds odd. How do you become a priest, btw? I hope it's not the case of one just "popping up", but actually some rich citizen going through a ritual, or education, which takes time and consumes resources?
Everyone needs a place to live, so yes a priest needs a home. Then he goes out and works in temples and so on. And yes, some rich citizen (child) has to be educated, which takes time and resources, to become any sort of skilled, educated person (priest, scribe, military commander and so on.)

[eobet]

Ah, lovely! Thank you for the reply!

Talk about fan service. :D

(Anyone interested in anime will get my poor joke attempt.)

[Jayhawk]

So if you're either placing placeholders or build the actual buildings, you have total control over who you want to live where...however, your idea of where someone should live, might not coincide with where someone wants to live.

Interesting...

[Battle Boar]

IMO, poor people are poor people. Because they don't have money. They won't become the rich when you give them a jewellery shop and some gardens. Make sense?

The block and the district of slaughterhouse and labor camps are only for the poor. The rich always lives in the expensive areas. They only move into a well planned district provided with good stuffs. If your city doesn't have this, they just don't immigrate.

Why elite houses must be involved into from huts?

edit
Plus in gameplay, if ones starts a new block for the rich (that's better than evolving old blocks, as elite houses hold fewer pop and some must emmigrate), it doesn't matter whether common or elite house is used. You also pave roads with avenues or imperial way and put down library or theater. As a matter of fact, elite houses and grand market are more expensive.

Sometimes old style, old school can be better, but new design has its purposes on the other hand. Do you want to remove roadblocks in emperor?

[Leonidos]

Generally the separation between elite and common housing like it was in Zeus or Emperor (also I did not play much the last title) is more realistic. In real life too you have in the modern cities a villas' ares and the lower level areas. Moreover the elite housing in Zeus too wasn't without its challenges. You were supposed to care about the beautification of the area as well as about the constant flow of all the nessecary goods

[Chris Beatrice]

Another great discussion. Let me clarify a few things.

"Placing housing" or "building houses" would more accurately be thought of as "designating what you want to happen at a particular spot." While for a purely historical sim it would be somewhat unrealistic for the mighty Pharaoh to say "I decree that there will be a mat shop right here on this corner!", nevertheless, these are the types of choices that matter a lot. Houses, like other buildings are actually built by people in the game. If, for example, no one wants to become a laborer at that time (because you've been treating your existing laborers poorly), then those laborers' huts you just designated won't actually be built!

CotN is *not* about amassing enough resources (building materials) to build things. No, no, no, no. It's not about having enough crappy mudbrick to build umpteen laborers' huts, shops and farmhouses. There's plenty of mudbrick for everyone!! CotN is about having in place the things necessary for all the families you want to live and prosper. Everyone in the city is connected to and dependent on everyone else in some way.

The question about "the only way you can have a priest is to build a house for one" is misleading. The only way an educated worker can work as a priest is if you tell him to do so, and support him as one, according to his level. This is done by designating a new priest apartment in a location you think will suit his needs. You don't "make priests" with a priest apartment any more than you "make farmers" with farmhouses. Aside from births, and small amounts of immigration, all the people in the area already exist, and you direct them to serve in different roles based on the numbers, types and locations of houses you designate. To "make a priest", though, you do need to provide a student with appropriate education.

-Chris

[Nero Would]

Thanks Chris. All these pieces of information are beginning to come together, although I don't think we'll really get the picture until we get to play the game.
Aside from births, and small amounts of immigration, all the people in the area already exist, and you direct them to serve in different roles based on the numbers, types and locations of houses you designate.
I think this is new information. It is different from the earlier city-builders where most cities (there were a few exceptions) start out as empty, uninhabited land, and rapid growth of population (perhaps as high as 100% per year) was possible. This approach seems more logical.

[Chris Beatrice]

Indeed, I'm amazed at the depth, scope and astuteness of these discussions, for a game none of you has actually played yet. And yep, that's right, CotN is not about building a city in the middle of nowhere and attracting people to it (that's really a modern concept) - no, it's about molding a primitive society into a well-organized, advanced, civilization of interdependent people. Specialization is another basic principle in the game - you can't have full time priests and scribes unless you have full time farmers to support them, and you can't personally manage all those farmers so you need to cede some of Pharaoh's land as estates for the nobility; and you can't have full time farmers unless you have full time potters, and so on. And once you start down the road of building an advanced civilization there's no going back. How well could you survive if all the grocery and housewares stores went away!?

[Ammurit]

Thanks Chris. All these pieces of information are beginning to come together, although I don't think we'll really get the picture until we get to play the game.

I think this is new information. It is different from the earlier city-builders where most cities (there were a few exceptions) start out as empty, uninhabited land, and rapid growth of population (perhaps as high as 100% per year) was possible. This approach seems more logical.

Indeed it does. Although I have no problem with being able to lure thousands of immigrants by simply designating housing plots, the idea that they seem to be "waiting on the sidelines" so to speak is very odd indeed. It gives the impression that there are tons of homeless people in the Roman provinces/Egypt/Greece/Atlantis/China just waiting for a place to go, or that every other city in these regions is far, far, far worse than the one that I've barely gotten started. :)

[Miut]

- no, it's about molding a primitive society into a well-organized, advanced, civilization of interdependent people. Specialization is another basic principle in the game - you can't have full time priests and scribes unless you have full time farmers to support them, and you can't personally manage all those farmers so you need to cede some of Pharaoh's land as estates for the nobility; and you can't have full time farmers unless you have full time potters, and so on. And once you start down the road of building an advanced civilization there's no going back. How well could you survive if all the grocery and housewares stores went away!?

Chris, this sounds like it is an Anthropologist's dream - a whole culture to tinker with without actually contaminating a real one! :D Wow... a dream come true for me. As I've said before, anthropology fascinates me with its network of interdependancies - how in a small village all have to scrabble for food and everything they need, then when they get to a certain level (no idea if it is a number of people or a stage of development where they actually collectuively have an excess of grain and other foods) where they can afford to say to the best potter - "We'll feed you if you make pots for us all." Fascinating stuff - and we get to watch it and help it happen. Thank you! :D

http://www.sff.net/people/Lisanne/Viking/images/Miut.gif

[EmperorJay]

Thank you Chris. So far, very few aspects of the game has dissappointed me and this thing sounds just as great.

"How well could you survive if the grocery and household stores went away"

I would have to get my own food and wouldn't care about luxuries until I got my food. And this is quite like it works in the game.. lovely! :)

[G-Force]

What aspects disappoint you?

G-Force

[EmperorJay]

It not really disappoints me, but altough there are many cities to be build the number during a single campaign is quite limited.

The campaign seems to have a lot of replayability, because when you start a new campaign you can pick new locations for your capital. So, the number of scenarios is not limited at all, but I think I'd prefer to have the same number of scenarios in one campaign.

[G-Force]

Oh, but you can meke that up by making your own maps. I do believe an editor would be included in the initial release, right?

G-Force

[EmperorJay]

The editor is indeed included and that's why it doesn't really dissapoint me. But then again, my maps will never be as good as theirs :) .

[Erthadon]

What I like about this game, and the housing (as described by Chris), is the ability (or need, almost), to get inside the minds of the people you control. You actually have to think 'like an egyptian' - plonking down x shop, y resource centre, or z service centre won't get someone to move in. Very much an interesting, and realistic approach to housing.

Of course, you get the thing of "Well, x child doesn't necessarily need to go to school, so this family might be able to move in here, and in time, a school can be built up, to attract those who might like that."

[dreamsoftwilight]

What I like about this game, and the housing (as described by Christ)

hehe... Jesus is one of the developers!! :D

*cough* anyway...


What I would like to know is, are we gonna have the services, like the fire department and the well workers? I always found it funny that Pharaoh had a fire department to put out blazing houses that were made of mud. lol. I know even in mudbrick houses that are flamable things that would require fire departments, but still the worst you can get out of a structural fire is a baked mudbrick house, which would be a lot more sturdy and durable than a regular one... even the more advanced buildings in Egypt were made out of sandstone and marble and stuff, so there wasnt much to worry about in structural fires, unless they had a lot of wooden hoarding and stuff that needed tending.

[Vaia]

Aside from births, and small amounts of immigration, all the people in the area already exist, and you direct them to serve in different roles based on the numbers, types and locations of houses you designate.

Will we know (or be able to determine) how many “people in the area already exist”?

[Erthadon]

hehe... Jesus is one of the developers!! :D



Erm. Yeah...

Sorta like God Is My CoPilot type thing.... ;)

[dreamsoftwilight]

No dear, you missed your typo. You put a "t" in Chris, thereby spelling Christ. :P

Hence my joke.

*shrugs*

[Erthadon]

No dear, you missed your typo. You put a "t" in Chris, thereby spelling Christ. :P

Hence my joke.

*shrugs*


I saw. Hence my edit. And attempted rescue of the typo....

[Kraken]

Will we know (or be able to determine) how many “people in the area already exist”?Yes. They are "villagers", and they're listed on the People Report.

[EmperorJay]

hehe... Jesus is one of the developers!! :D

*cough* anyway...


What I would like to know is, are we gonna have the services, like the fire department and the well workers? I always found it funny that Pharaoh had a fire department to put out blazing houses that were made of mud. lol. I know even in mudbrick houses that are flamable things that would require fire departments, but still the worst you can get out of a structural fire is a baked mudbrick house, which would be a lot more sturdy and durable than a regular one... even the more advanced buildings in Egypt were made out of sandstone and marble and stuff, so there wasnt much to worry about in structural fires, unless they had a lot of wooden hoarding and stuff that needed tending.

There will be services but some time ago, one of the developers already mentioned that the architect as you know him from Pharaoh is gone, there will still be architects but those will be busy with.. well.. being an architect :p . I assume you need them for monuments. I don't know about wells really.. I think people go to the wells theirselves either that or they get their water out of the Nile perhaps?

I can't recall how much has been said about it, but I would assume services would include healthcare and education which people will visit when needed.

[noxiousdog]

Indeed, I'm amazed at the depth, scope and astuteness of these discussions, for a game none of you has actually played yet. And yep, that's right, CotN is not about building a city in the middle of nowhere and attracting people to it (that's really a modern concept) - no, it's about molding a primitive society into a well-organized, advanced, civilization of interdependent people. Specialization is another basic principle in the game - you can't have full time priests and scribes unless you have full time farmers to support them, and you can't personally manage all those farmers so you need to cede some of Pharaoh's land as estates for the nobility; and you can't have full time farmers unless you have full time potters, and so on. And once you start down the road of building an advanced civilization there's no going back. How well could you survive if all the grocery and housewares stores went away!?

:( Ishmael (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0553375407/ref=sib_rdr_rdp2/002-0059063-6328042?%5Fencoding=UTF8&no=283155&me=ATVPDKIKX0DER&st=books)

That being said, I'm looking forward to breaking out civilization on my tribes.