City Builder-Civilization hybrid

[Son of Moose]

Perhaps this thread should be read in conjunction with my RTS-City Builder thread elsewhere in this forum. :)

I must admit that (when playing Civ3) I was really disappointed that one is not able to directly place one's impressive array of buildings on the game map. (Indeed, to add insult to injury, all the overhead city views are basically identical to each other in appearance). This inability to see one's cities evolving before one's eyes imho completely neutralises the potentially interesting CB aspect of Civ3.

In order to be able to accommodate the vast array of structures that can be built in each city, the devs would have to employ a considerably smaller scaled map to accommodate them --- maybe each city would then consist of nearer 2000x2000 tiles rather than 2x2 tiles. I fully realise that this development would most probably necessitate monstrously large maps :D which would cause serious lag problems in all but the most powerful machines currently available. :(

The ability to freely construct SEVERAL interlinked and inter-functioning cities (as Civ3 does permit in an extremely basic way --- please refer to my comments regarding the inability to actually see these cities on the actual game map) would surely not only add another intruiging aspect to the Civilization franchise itself but (more importantly) would seem a feasible option in a future TM CB game. :cool:

Just imagine a game featuring the intricate detail of the classic CB games (and surely CotN) combined with the scope and vision of an ancient-era Civ3!!! This is an incredibly ambitious prospect ... but it really thrills me just to think of it!!! :eek: All this together with some possible RTS-type action as well ... :p

[googoo]

FIrst, how would this work in a turn based game like civ 3?

Second, in game like civ 3 thats played a majority in multiplayer, how would such a feature prevent a game from exceeding the turtle like pace already found in the game, essentially, who would want to sit and wait whilst someone meticulously designed their city?

[Son of Moose]

GooGoo:

Many thanks for your reply. :)

Yes --- I realise that Civ is indeed a TBS game (rather than an RTS one). :) Therefore my somewhat idealised concept of incorporating some of its more interesting features into a future possible TM developed CB game, would have to be largely restricted to its use of multiple cities. However, a skilled game designer (such as those based at TM) would no doubt find a novel way of adapting some of the other gameplay features to suite the RTS type play featured in all the existing classic CB games. :)

Just as CotN is designed as a solely SP game (like all its predecessors --- with the notable exception of Emperor: RotMK), I would propose that this City Builder-Civilization hybrid would follow the same route. After all, I would envisage that most of the City Builder-Civilization hybrid games played would last many hours (even more than Civ3).

As stated in my initial post, I have no doubt that such a game would be hideously intensive wrt processing power and memory. However, if it were to be released after another 2 or 3 years, I would imagine that most computer systems would be considerably more powerful than those of today. Indeed, probably today's most powerful P4 systems, would barely meet this game's (or any other new game of 2006/7/8's) minimum requirements. Such is the rate (and cost) of progress in the field of computer technology. It is indeed a "double-edged" blade ... :confused:

[googoo]

Wouldn't it be a little stressing for someone to manage 5 cities at once whilst still having to maintain happiness in each settlement? Sure computers would update, but would people? I still know individuals who play games on a 700 mhz, with 128 mb of ram.

[Son of Moose]

GooGoo:

Yes --- I certainly agree with you that it would be extremely difficult to try to run 5 different cities adopting the CotN model of appeasing your citizens. :) While this sounds an extremely interesting gameplay concept that will form an integral part of CotN :) , it would indeed be totally unsustainable in the type of City Builder-Civilization hybrid that I am suggesting.

Therefore I would humbly suggest that one would have to feature the more "basic" block-design related gameplay that characterised the earlier classic CB games. This might still be fairly tricky to play but should possibly provide a truly interesting and challenging task. ;)

As I do not currently possess the most powerful or up-to-date system, I would actually also be similarly affected by high minimum specs. However, again, it is a regretable case of "adapt or die" ... :(

[googoo]

There's already game coming out that features your ideal cb game features, bw&2. :(

[Son of Moose]

I must freely admit upfront that I am not totally au fait with this game, but I would certainly not see my proposed City Builder-Civilization game featuring a series of oversized animals that need to acquire certain skills. :)

Perhaps there are other interesting features in Peter Molineaux's forthcoming masterpiece that I need to explore ... :) Indeed, I will tomorow ... :)

[googoo]

The animals should be fun (hopefully)! The game features city building aspects this time around, with the placement of structures being vital. You'll be commanding vast armies to smight immense cities, or simply leaving it up you creature to command the armies. Theres an alignment system that changes how the world looks. You'll aslo be able to manipulate the world in unique ways, such as starting forest fires, storms(not sure on this one) or volcanic erruptions. People, supposedly, can now take care of themselves (thank the lord!..... no, seriously!).

[Son of Moose]

GooGoo:

Thank you so much for this information!! :)

This does actually sound very interesting and most promising. It could indeed be fairly compatible with my concept for a City Builder-Civilization hybrid game --- although I suppose I was potentially thinking about a version of either Caesar3 (Keith where are you ?), Pharaoh or Zeus with several co-existing and interacting cities. :)

Indeed, it might yet be possible to combine these separate cultures under a single overarching platform --- as suggested in my other thread appearing in this forum. (The one detailing my ideas for the compatibility of TM's future CB games). :)

[googoo]

ANd not to mention 5 civilizations :p

[Janmeryet]

GooGoo:

I suppose I was potentially thinking about a version of either Caesar3 (Keith where are you ?), Pharaoh or Zeus with several co-existing and interacting cities. :)

How about getting five computers and playing Emperor multiplayer - against yourself? (tongue in cheek) :D

[Son of Moose]

Janmeryet:

Yes --- now that would be an interesting concept indeed!!! :)

[I actually seem to remember a forum member with 3 pcs and 3 copies of E:RotMK who was going to try to play it simultaneously (as you suggested) on all three of his/her computers. We never heard if s/he ever actually managed to achieve this unique feat. :p ].

[googoo]

3 cpus? what is the world coming to?

[Son of Moose]

Yes --- as far as I remember each member of his/her family had a computer of their own and (most fortuitously) a separate copy of Emperor: RotMK. :)

[NeilV]

3 cpus? what is the world coming to?

Yes every one needs at least 5 :rolleyes: (I have 6 working ones at present:D)

[googoo]

hmmm......

[tobing]

Well, I have only three (two of them are notebooks) - and I really hate to look after so many PCs, so the less the better (for me...).

It's just funny to think of one person playing Emperor on several PCs against himself. But it illustrates the main big central problem of a CB + CIV hybrid game (same for CB + RTS): In RTS you have to get your city going fast, so you can concentrate on building units and defenses. In CIV you want to have your cities mostly automatic, so you can concentrate on building your empire. In CB you want to continuously improve and build your city, so that will take time. How to solve that in a hybrid game?

The more I think about it, the more it seems to be too difficult to bring both concepts together into one game, which should be challenging but also fun, so you can't micromanage your city full time when you have to observe and lead your army or build your empire whuile moving your armies through the world map.

[Son of Moose]

Tobing:

How to solve that in a hybrid game?

This is indeed the question!! ;)

There would have to be a lot of balancing involved ... and it would have to be beneficial for the player to have to constantly remodel and improve his/her cities.

Maybe the concept of aesthetics could play a major role in this hybrid game --- insofar as units (and/or key buildings) could receive more hit points and/or inflict more damage upon enemy forces when the civilization aesthetic level is high. (The converse would also be true --- so that it would not be a good idea to ignore one's cities for too long!!). :)

[Jenisis]

Just to let you guys know, my son regularly IM's with Peter Molyneux, and I have as well regarding BW2. He has sent us some preview screenshots and it looks truly awsome. Son of Moose, from what I have seen, there are a number of aspects you have spoken of in this thread and elsewhere that I think you will find very intriquing. The cities supported in this game are supposed to be very large and there is also supposed to be the ability to have and control very large armies. From what I have seen and heard, this game is going to be nothing like BW1 except in a very basic way. It does combine city building and RTS in what he calls "a shifting game play experience". If you tend to be more of an RTS fan, that aspect of the game will be emphasised, and if you are a citybuilder, then that aspect becomes more dominant. Unfortunately there is no release date as of yet... Here is a good site with links to lots of screenshots and movies http://allboards.lionhead.com/showthread.php?t=80954

[googoo]

they say their not going to release any new info on bw2 until january :(

[Son of Moose]

Jenisis:

Thank you so much for the most interesting post and the link!! :D This does certainly appear to be a game to watch!! :)

[googoo]

This game shall, hopefully, be the ultimate strat game when it is finally released. I have faith that the lionhead team can successfully pull off this immense endeavor.

[wodinoneeye]

This game shall, hopefully, be the ultimate strat game when it is finally released. I have faith that the lionhead team can successfully pull off this immense endeavor.


I wonder how they will fit the idea of the huge pet(s) into a hard RTS type genre. Will the pets decrease in significance (it was the thing that made B&W stand out <besides the 'hand' interface>)

[Jenisis]

From what I have seen and heard, the creature in BW2 still plays an important role, but unlike bw1 the teaching and training is much easier and adaptable. I suppose you could think of your creature as a right hand guy or a top level administrator. He basically does what he percieves that you want him to do, but that is also filtered through his own wants/needs/desires. In BW1 you had to spend literally hours repeating the same tasks over and over to teach your creature and there was no way to teach him WHEN to perform a certain task, but from what the people at lionhead have said this has changed radically.

Peter Molyneux is well known for undertaking projects which seem monumental in their scope, and groundbreaking. I think this will be no different. he has said that he will not release it until he is completely happy with the final game. It is truley a game to keep your eye on. Hopefully the wait won't be too long now that Fable has released, and Lionhead is able to focus more on BW2.