The People

[Keith]

Ok, so we know that the people of the game are going to be more realistic in terms of what they do in their daily life. That covers the intelligence part.

But, how are they going to be handled graphically?

Will these people move realistically in a real time manner? We don't want all the farmers hoeing their crops in time together, or all the tradesmen moving in in sync as they sell their wares. Some random variance in the movements would be nice so they all don't look like clones, especially, since the visual scale of this game seems to be much larger than previous citybuilders.

I know it's early yet and the screenshots don't reveal all, but from some of the shots I've seen I can only hope for more variation amongst the people in their appearance and dress. One screen shot has at least 4 women carrying baskets on their heads all in the same manner wearing exactly the same clothes. They all seem to be right handed balancing the loads they carry on their heads with their left hand.

Where their no "lefties" in ancient Egypt? ;)

Also, we definitely don't want to see "itchy and scratchy" movements in any battles that may occur, i.e., two men standing stationary next to each other hacking away at each other until one falls. I've seen the animation of the soldier and it looks good albeit a bit repetitive. I hope that he has even more moves in the real game.
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[Azeem]

Where their no "lefties" in ancient Egypt?

I don't know about Egypt, but being left-handed in many other parts of the world is tabboo. ;)

[Celebithil Dae]

It is? Uh oh, im in trouble then, drat, i knew i shoulda been a righty ;)

Yeah, some variance in movement would be greatly appreciated. I cant stand the hacking till one falls bit. Drives me insane. id like to see people actually lok like theur fighting, not swinging steel in the air.

[Keith]

Where their no "lefties" in ancient Egypt?

I don't know about Egypt, but being left-handed in many other parts of the world is tabboo. ;)
Yes, I am aware of that historical cultural fact too. Hence the shaking of right hands as a greeting since the left hand was used for cleansing oneself, etc.

However, for purposes of variation, it would be nice to see.
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[Keith]

http://www.civilization.ca/civil/egypt/images/loglife2.gifClothing and adornment


The ancient Egyptians were very particular about cleanliness and personal appearance. People who were poorly groomed were considered inferior. Both men and women used cosmetics and wore jewellery. One item of jewellery, the amulet, was believed to protect the owners and give them strength.
http://www.civilization.ca/civil/egypt/images/life27a.jpg (http://www.civilization.ca/civil/egypt/images/life27b.jpg)
Flax grown by farmers was woven into fine linen (http://www.civilization.ca/civil/egypt/egcl06p.html) for clothing. Working-class men wore loincloths or short kilts, as well as long shirt-like garments tied with a sash at the waist. Kilts were made from a rectangular piece of linen that was folded around the body and tied at the waist. Wealthy men wore knee-length shirts, loincloths or kilts and adorned themselves with jewellery – a string of beads, armlets and bracelets. Working-class women wore full-length wraparound gowns and close-fitting sheaths. Elite women enhanced their appearance with make-up, earrings, bracelets and necklaces.


Both men and women wore sandals made of papyrus. Sandals made of vegetable fibres or leather were a common type of footwear. Nevertheless, men and women, including the wealthy, were frequently portrayed barefoot.

Old Kingdom

http://www.civilization.ca/civil/egypt/images/life19a.jpg

Nobleman - short kilt, pleated and belted; shoulder-length hair

http://www.civilization.ca/civil/egypt/images/life20a.jpg

Female Servant - Simle sheath dress with wide shoulder straps; long hair, unplaited; jewellery

Middle Kingdom

http://www.civilization.ca/civil/egypt/images/life21a.jpg

Official - Mid-calf kilt with large apron, which was probably stiffened to keep its triangular shape; elaborate necklace.

http://www.civilization.ca/civil/egypt/images/life22a.jpg

Female Servant - Simple sheath dress; long unplaited hair.

New Kingdom

http://www.civilization.ca/civil/egypt/images/life23a.jpg

Nobleman - Elaborate pleated garment; jewellery, wig, scented cone, sandals with extended curled toes, typical of the period.

http://www.civilization.ca/civil/egypt/images/life24a.jpg

Nobelwoman - Elaborate gown, plaited wig, jewellery, hair ornaments and scented cone.

Drawings by John Ide

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[Keith]

The Royal Image



Clothing

When royalty, gods and goddesses were portrayed in statues, temple carvings and wall paintings, it was the beauty and self-confidence of the subject that was conveyed. Egyptian artistic conventions idealized the proportions of the body. Men are shown with broad shoulders, slim bodies, and muscular arms and legs; and women have small waists, flat stomachs and rounded busts. Both wear elegant clothing and jewellery, and stand tall with their heads held high. Their stately appearance commands the respect of all who gaze upon their portraits.

In the Old Kingdom, goddesses and elite women were portrayed wearing a sheath with broad shoulder straps (http://www.civilization.ca/civil/egypt/images/life25.jpg). In the New Kingdom, they wore sheaths decorated with gold thread and colourful beadwork, and a type of sari; the sheath had only one thin strap. These dresses were made of linen, and decorated with beautifully coloured patterns and beadwork. By the reign of Amenhotep III (1390-1352 B.C.), women's garments were made of very light see-through linen.

The men wore knee-length shirts, loincloths or kilts made of linen. Leather loincloths were not uncommon, however. Their garments were sometimes decorated with gold thread and colourful beadwork. The priests (http://www.civilization.ca/civil/egypt/egcr07e.html), viziers (http://www.civilization.ca/civil/egypt/egcgov3e.html) and certain officials wore long white robes that had a strap over one shoulder, and sem-priests (one of the ranks in the priesthood) wore leopard skins over their robes.

http://www.civilization.ca/civil/egypt/images/life26a.jpg http://www.civilization.ca/civil/egypt/images/life28a.jpg

Hairstyles

The Egyptian elite hired hairdressers and took great care of their hair. Hair was washed and scented, and sometimes lightened with henna. Children had their heads shaved, except for one or two tresses or a plait worn at the side of the head. This was called the sidelock of youth, a style worn by the god Horus when he was an infant.

http://www.civilization.ca/civil/egypt/images/life31a.jpg

Women wearing perfumed cones and wigs.
Painting: Winnifred Neeler, Royal Ontario Museum

http://www.civilization.ca/civil/egypt/images/life32a.jpg

Wig replica.
Royal Ontario Museum



Both men and women sometimes wore hairpieces, but wigs were more common. Wigs were made from human hair and had vegetable-fibre padding on the underside. Arranged into careful plaits and strands, they were often long and heavy. They may have been worn primarily at festive and ceremonial occasions, like in eighteenth-century Europe. Priests shaved their heads (http://www.civilization.ca/civil/egypt/images/govt09b.jpg) and bodies to affirm their devotion to the deities and to reinforce their cleanliness, a sign of purification.

Make-up

http://www.civilization.ca/civil/egypt/images/life29a.jpg

Elite men and women enhanced their appearance with various cosmetics: oils, perfumes, and eye and facial paints. Both sexes wore eye make-up, most often outlining their lids with a line of black kohl (http://www.civilization.ca/civil/egypt/egcglose.html#kohl). When putting on make-up, they used a mirror, as we do today.
The Egyptians used mineral pigments to produce make-up. Galena or malachite was ground on stone palettes to make eye paint. Applied with the fingers or a kohl pencil (made of wood, ivory or stone), eye paint emphasized the eyes and protected them from the bright sunlight. During the Old Kingdom, powdered green malachite was brushed under the eyes. Rouge to colour the face and lips was made from red ochre. Oils and fats were applied to the skin to protect it, mixed into perfumes, and added to the incense cones worn on top of the head. Both men and women wore perfumed cones on their heads. It has been suggested that the cones were made of tallow or fat, which melted gradually, releasing fragrance. No examples of the cones have been found.

Jewellery

http://www.civilization.ca/civil/egypt/images/life30a.jpg


From the earliest times, jewellery (http://www.nilestone.com/jewelry-history.htm) was worn by the elite for self-adornment and as an indication of social status. Bracelets, rings, earrings, necklaces, pins, belt buckles and amulets were made from gold and silver inlaid with precious stones such as lapis lazuli, turquoise, carnelian and amethyst. Faience and glass were also used to decorate pieces of jewellery.
The elegant design of Egyptian jewellery often reflected religious themes. Motifs included images of the gods and goddesses; hieroglyphic symbols; and birds, animals and insects that played a role in the creation myth. Commonly seen were the scarab (http://www.civilization.ca/civil/egypt/images/life33.jpg); the Eye of Re; lotus and papyrus plants; the vulture and the hawk; the cobra; and symbols such as the Isis knot, the shen ring (symbol of eternity) and the ankh (symbol of life). A person’s jewellery was placed in his or her grave to be used in the afterworld, along with many other personal items.


© Canadian Museum of Civilization Corporation

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[Miut]

Very interesting, Keith. :) I thoroughly enjoyed this. If I might expand on a couple of things?
Khaemwese was the son of Ramesses 2nd. This is from the TourEgypt site.
"Khaemwese wrote in an inscription found in the Serapaeum at Saqqara that he had joined the priesthood of Ptah at an early age and have earned the title of sem-priests a short time later. Sem-priests can be identified by their panther skin robes that are draped over their shoulders. The position dates to the beginning of Egyptian history, and was often held by an elder son of the pharaoh. It was an important position connected with royal funeral ceremonies and so also affiliated with the cult of Osiris."

So sem-priests had to do with funeral rites and the person who Opened the Mouth of the dead Pharaoh was usually the Heir designate, as Khaemwese was before he died. If you look at the paintings inside Tutankhamun's tomb, it is interesting to know that the sem-priest there is Aye, who became Pharaoh after him.

On linen that they have found, there have been several very different grades of it discovered, some so fine as to be the transparent draperies you see in some of the beautifil pix of Egyptian upper class women you have Posted here.

http://www.reshafim.org.il/ad/egypt/timelines/topics/flax.htm
"The linen they produced could be exceedingly delicate. By 3000 BCE the Egyptian weavers were capable of weaving the finest of cloth with 64 warp threads and 48 weft threads per centimetre. About 6th dynasty (ca 2100 BCE) cloth it was said, it was so fine it could be pulled through a signet ring. During the 11th dynasty the width of the cloth measured 160 to 180 cm.
The quality of the cloth of the clothes people wore was often remarked upon, as it set apart the powerful from the humble:

... You are clothed in the robe of finest linen,
The garments that clad the flesh of the god... The prayers of Paheri
M. Lichtheim, Ancient Egyptian Literature, Vol. II, p.16"

I sometimes think that in comparison our culture seems crass and ugly when placed against the beauty of the jewellry (which you also admire I believve - who couldn't?) and the delicacy of the cloth the Ancient Egyptians (and Cretans) could weave in what was essentially bronze age times.

Thanks again for some lovely pix and info - I love learning something new about Egypt. :)

[Keith]

We have been learning about the everday life of the average citizen in CotN. It's occurred to me that we haven't seen or heard much about the Royal household.

Will pharaoh be married? Get married? Children? Or are we as pharaoh doomed to rule our land alone.
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[vovan]

From what I understand, there is a certain dynasty-management aspect to the game, and that of course, leads to your questions, Keith. But I also wonder if we will be able to witness the Pharaoh's avatar? I mean, we've seen some screenies of what seems to be a palace, but I wonder if we would be able to see the actual Pharaoh. Surely, he left his palace every now and then? :) That would also be an interesting scripted scene for the ending of a city: you finish building a Pyramid, and can see the Pharaoh's body being taken out of the Palace, to the embalmer, and from there - to the pyramid in a pompous procession. :) That's Easter-Egg thread material right there. :D

[angelisis]

Where their no "lefties" in ancient Egypt?

I don't know about Egypt, but being left-handed in many other parts of the world is tabboo. ;)

i saw somewhere that to be a leftie in Ancient egypt ment that you were a child of seth, so indeed there were lefties in AE. :D


angelisis.

[Tony Leier]

As far as the original post from Keith- first, you're really studying these screenshots aren't you? It's flattering actually. But to answer the question, I think you'll be pleased with what you'll see as far as variations go. We're still working on it, so I don't want to go into more details yet. I will mention the left-handed idea to Dennis (our character modeler).

Next, nice clothing references.

Finally, something I think is interesting about Egyptian linen. As mentioned, the Ancient Egyptians made some extremely high quality linen. In modern times, Egypt doesn't make much flax at all. They make a lot of cotton instead, in fact, I'm pretty sure cotton's their main crop.

As best as I could determine, Canada is the biggest flax producer today. It grows well in the Great Plains of North America. It seems that most of the production goes toward flaxseed (oil) rather than linen though.

[Keith]

As far as the original post from Keith- first, you're really studying these screenshots aren't you? It's flattering actually. But to answer the question, I think you'll be pleased with what you'll see as far as variations go. We're still working on it, so I don't want to go into more details yet. I will mention the left-handed idea to Dennis (our character modeler).
When there is little info there's lots of time for close examination. ;) And that gives rise to even more questions. Thanks for passing along the "leftie" idea.

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[Kiya]

:( the Ancient Egyptians made some extremely high quality linen. In modern times, Egypt doesn't make much flax at all. They make a lot of cotton instead, in fact, I'm pretty sure cotton's their main crop.

As best as I could determine, Canada is the biggest flax producer today. It grows well in the Great Plains of North America. It seems that most of the production goes toward flaxseed (oil) rather than linen though.

Just a note, there are two varieties or subspecies of flax, one for producing flaxseed oil and the other for flax fibre and thread.

[Kiya]

the Ancient Egyptians made some extremely high quality linen. In modern times, Egypt doesn't make much flax at all. They make a lot of cotton instead, in fact, I'm pretty sure cotton's their main crop.

As best as I could determine, Canada is the biggest flax producer today. It grows well in the Great Plains of North America. It seems that most of the production goes toward flaxseed (oil) rather than linen though.

The Egyptian cotton is excellent, the fibre is long and smooth, thus the thread is the very best. I allways use it for my lace projects. So, when visiting Egypt I was surprised to see a lot of second-rate T-shirts, tablecloths... and many of them were made, not in Egypt, but in some other country! Bought a lovely scarf with ancient Egyptian figures only to find out later that it was made in Pakistan! Well, never mind, it is lovely AND of good quality!

Just a note, there are two varieties or subspecies of flax, one for producing flaxseed oil and the other for flax fibre and thread.

[Keith]

Some interesting links on Egyptian Flax and Linen making:

http://nefertiti.iwebland.com/timelines/topics/flax.htm
http://www.ancientroute.com/resource/cloth/linen.htm
http://carlos.emory.edu/ODYSSEY/EGYPT/flax.html

1. All clothes were almost always made of linen which is made from flax.
2. Flax: a plant having small leaves, blue flowers and stems about two feet tall.
3. Flax was pulled out of the ground, not cut.
4. This backbreaking work was done mostly by men.
5. Half-ripe flax stems made the best thread.
6. If the stems were too ripe, they were used for mats and rope.
7. Flax stems were soaked for several days.
8. The fibers were separated.
9. Then the fibers were beaten until soft.
10. The spinner attached the fibers to the spindle.
11. The fibers were twisted into strong thread.
12. The weaving was done on a loom.
13. A loom is a frame made of two beams held by four pegs in the ground.
14. White linen needed constant washing. It was washed in the river or canal, rinsed, then pounded on a stone, and, bleached in the sun.
15. Linen clothes needed to be repleated every time they were washed.
16. To do so they pressed the linen into grooves on a wooden board and let it dry.

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[Keith]

Don't know how I missed it but it appears as though one of the women bearing baskets on her head is a "leftie":

http://www.immortalcities.com/cotn/images/ss/ss-109-reg.jpg

[eobet]

What I want to know is if we can monitor the activites of an individual, similar to what's availible in Theme Park (you can get a complete history of all actions each individual person has taken in that game, along with some stats on both behavior, current status and inventory)?

Btw, the linen of Egypt was so fine that it is impossible to reproduce today. Today's linen is made to be strong, but theirs was finer than silk! There's an old pharaoh's garments which are withering away in a museum somewhere in this world, and there is no way to make replicas of them, because there doesn't exist a thin enough fabric today.

[Keith]

There's a lot we don't know yet, and a lot that they won't tell us yet.

As for your comments on linen, I'm not so sure that it's correct in saying that no one can make a similar quality linen. It is probably more true to say that cotton has surplanted linen in most cases and the linen industry just isn't producing that sort of quality due to the lack of demand. Egypt still produces linen from flax, I just visited a commercial linen sellers website the other day.

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[Miut]

I've hadyears worth of dressmaking experience - done it since I was 16 in fact, and naturally much of it was historically accurate costumes in wool and linen for the Norse group I ran.
As far as my experiences have led me, people since the later 1960's have wanted linen to look like linen with a thick-n-thin slub weave rather than be amazingly fine - after all we have cheap cotton lawn for that now, so it is no longer a status symbol to have finely woven linen. So the heavier weights became, and so far as I know, remain rairly popular.
Me, I don't like it much. Scratchy, and even good quality has the odd piece of husk in it that pricks and irritates like a feather spine does in down pillows or jackets. Also when you try to tease it out, it makes a bit of a mess of the thread too.

Now start talking Silk and I will be riveted. That is an amazing fabric, almost alive when you wear it... mmmmsss..

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[Eddy]

Tell me about it. I have some silk shirts and while most men think it is poofty, I can't help but love wearing them. So soft and decadent, yet so pretty at the same time. The feeling when a soft breeze blows is incredible. Shame on you ladies for not letting us in on the secret and shame on you men for not indulging yourselves because of gender roles.

[Kiya]

[QUOTE=Keith]
As for your comments on linen, I'm not so sure that it's correct in saying that no one can make a similar quality linen. It is probably more true to say that cotton has surplanted linen in most cases and the linen industry just isn't producing that sort of quality due to the lack of demand. Egypt still produces linen from flax, I just visited a commercial linen sellers website the other day.

[
IMHO it's the quality they can't produce any more. Heard the explanation long time ago, but can't remember it exactly right now. I think one of the reasons is a kind of pollution of the land; fibers are not as long as they used to be, thus the thread is coarser compared to what it was. In Europe a couple of hundreds of years ago when fine linen bobbin lace was made, girls used to sit in damp basements while doing this. You see the finest linen thread needs to be moist all the time. In those days they had never heard of 8 hour working days,holidays what ever, and their health was ruined in their early thirsties. :( Nowadays they offer for sale linen thead size number 120/2 being the finest (150/2 or 160/2 only limeted availability and not "openly" for sale), while there were linen thread size even 220/2 or 240/2. I can assure you, if anything of that kind would be in shops, there will be crowds of ladies eager to buy even if the price were high!

[Miut]

Eddy,
my son went charity shop hunting for old clothes for playing LARPO - live action role playing (never got him into steel weapons, but he's played with the foam ones for several years now in clubs) and brought back this shirt he got for £1.50 ($2) in a deep crimson. I went loopy over it as it was Pure Silk! He STILL wanted to cut it up and not sell it to me at double the price I was offering him! Never mind it would have been like a tent on me, I could have remade it no problem!

However the fuss I made, did decide him to keep it for best and he wears it going out. Given he likes a Goth look, all in black, it looks extra good on him. ;)
I should say here that UK Goths are not known for being at all violent as US Goths seem to be.

Plus my boyfriend likes silk boxers ... so do I. :D
Keep on being different and start a trend your women will like cos silk is soooo nice to touch...and pet, and stroke...

Seriously, it used to be a preserve of the men in the East until Eleanor of Aquitane brought back the pastel colored silks to Eurpoe. I had to research her when I worked for a Professional Reenactment group, and actually portrayed her at a couple of their very big shows.
As well as bringing silks to Europe, she had a bunch of Amazonian ladies with whom she rode into battle - and caused the English King Richard her husband heart failure and loss of men cos he had to appoint a bodyguard for her! She had a nick name based on her pixie red leather boots that she wore. (not Richard the Lion Heart, the Richard before him) It caused an awful scandle at the time. She got a bad reputation and he had her incarcerated with her Uncle for a while, I believe, then shipped to England and she ended up spending most of her life in a prison at Old Sarum in England. This was cos she was politically astute and ambitiouys to have her son John become king.

If you ever get the chance to see the movie with Richard Harris and Kate Hepburn in it called "The Lion in Winter". THAT was Katherine of Aragon! You can see Kate Hepburn as being like the real Katherine in that movie.
It's about her being taken out of Old Sarum and over to Lesser Britain (in those days Britain owned a chunck of what was to become France - think it is now ccalled Brittany, but it gave the UK the name of Greater Brittany, ie Great Britain) for Xmas celebrations, which are really strung out rows and power games between Richard, who won't name any of his 3 sons heirs, her, and the 3 sons - Richard (to become Lion Heart) John (as in Bad Prince John of Robin Hood fame) and another one called Gerard I think... not sure. I never did English history, only Scots, and for the show I only had to know around the period of the Crusade battles Eleanor was in. Gresat movie, a must see.

It's one of my favorites, alongside a beauty that I also have on video called "The War Lord" with Charleton Heston in it about a Norman warlord. He was such an under-rated actor, poor man, but very good at what he did.

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[Cassiopeia]

If you ever get the chance to see the movie with Richard Harris and Kate Hepburn in it called "The Lion in Winter".

Actually, it was Peter O'Toole as Henry II. The movie also had Anthony Hopkins as their son Richard, and Timothy Dalton as the King of France. The Great Kate won her 3rd Oscar for that movie.

The Lion in Winter (http://us.imdb.com/title/tt0063227/)

Cass

[Miut]

LOL! Trust me to get the name wrong of the guy! ;) I had his FACE in my mind's eye, the name just got messed up! Thanks, Cass.

[Jayhawk]

Personally I love silk.
I love the touch of it like a butterfly's kiss on my skin :)

[Miut]

Tell me about it. It is just so alive!

[Janmeryet]

From what I've read in Christian Jacq's books, many of the elite women openly diplayed *attributes* that we now keep covered - is this true and will it be a feature of the game?

[EmperorJay]

Interesting questions.. I knew female dancers were sparsely clothed, to say so, but Citybuilders always had a "Everyone" rating, nudity (even if it's only to a certain extent) would make it a "Teen" rating perhaps.. I don't know what they're aiming for.

[Keith]

I don't believe that we'll see that in the game. It would provide just too many problems with the game rating and some of the general public. Headaches I'm sure they want to avoid.

That means you probably won't be seeing the likes of Patricia Velasquez as Anck-su-namun from "The Mummy" in nothing but that amazing body paint "outfit".
http://thm-ar1r2.search.vip.scd.yahoo.com/image/275082799 (http://www.celebrity-fansites.com/multimedia/stars/patricia_velasquez/the_mummy/0001_medium.rm)
Click for video
:D
(Darn it.:mad: )

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[vovan]

Ehhh, I'd say there are plenty of other games with scantly-clad polygon women, if that strikes your fancy. No need to add 'em here. If only for the E rating, as Keith said.

[Bradius]

I think it will be safe to say that this will be a fully clothed game :)

For clothing optional games, perhaps Leisure Suite Larry, or similar ilk. I will not need any extra distractions for my pyramid superintendent! (Now where did he wander off to? Dang, but I need to build fewer Senet houses!). Which now gets me to thinking, if a fellow did dally about or spend too long at the Senet house, could we find him sitting outside the house in the morning? Or might their be virtual divorce going on. Which means we now need those bloodsucking family lawyers. Then again, as the grand imperial poobah, I guess they will come to you with their problems and expect you to make everything right. It is enough to give you a virual headache! Hum, too much reality could be a bad thing... ;)


addendum:
And it is a darn good thing they don't have computer games in this virtual Egypt, in which case, my virtual equivilant would definitely be getting into trouble.

[Bugsy]

http://www.civilization.ca/civil/egypt/images/life31a.jpg

Women wearing perfumed cones and wigs.
Painting: Winnifred Neeler, Royal Ontario Museum

http://www.civilization.ca/civil/egypt/images/life32a.jpg

Wig replica.
Royal Ontario Museum



Both men and women sometimes wore hairpieces, but wigs were more common. Wigs were made from human hair and had vegetable-fibre padding on the underside. Arranged into careful plaits and strands, they were often long and heavy. They may have been worn primarily at festive and ceremonial occasions, like in eighteenth-century Europe.
A recent special on the Discovery Channel was talking about this. An archealogist thinks she has found Nefertit's mummy, through a connection with her wig. It's Nefertiti's Resurrection, if you want to try to catch it.
Here is the site for Nefertiti's Resurrection:
http://dsc.discovery.com/convergence/nefertiti/nefertiti.html

Another great special they had on the same night was the Seven Wonders of Ancient Egypt. I was soooooo amazed and thrilled to learn even the Pharaoh's names in the time periods in the game was accurate!! Khufu was discussed, as was the Sphinx, in great detail. It was covered with sand three time, and unburied. (This is why the nose is so worn, I think anyway, as all that was visible was the head and up, and men could touch the nose!) Thutmosis IV slept at the head of the Sphinx one night, and had a dream. The dream he said, had the Sphinx in it, and it asked him, Why do you let me lay covered like this? And he said the Sphinx told him if he uncovered him, he would become King of Egypt. So he uncovered it.

They also mentioned in that special many in Egypt were afraid of the Sphinx. They had assumed it was a man's statue going straight downward, like the many statues of Pharaoh's long gone. They said this is why diggers tunneled into the Sphinx, they had not realized what it was.

Knowing cats were sacred in ancient Egypt, for one I'd love to see some in the game. It was a penalty of death to harm a cat. But knowing that, they still thought it odd that a Pharaoh had placed his head on a feline body. I don't find it odd at all. If cats were that sacred that they would kill someone for harming one, with the Egyptians so worried about their afterlife that they built tombs and temples as posh as they did, I think the Sphinx was placed where it was to "guard" the Pharaoh in the afterlife in the Pyramids behind it. Just my thought on it though, sorry to have rambled a tad, I adore ancient Egypt though. :D

[Miut]

Bugsy, the Nefertiti Found program is covered in another topic.
http://www.tiltedmill.com/forums/showthread.php?t=121&highlight=nefertiti

The archeologist concerned Joan Fletcher, went straight to the press with her rather dubious "discovery" and ended up being banned from returning to dig in Egpyt by Zawir Hamass, the Secretary-General of Egypt's Supreme Council of Antiquities, and her employers will also be Banned unless she gives a public apology for this.
There never was a piece of wig in the same tomb room, that's untrue, and as for the body, there were several there, she picked up a loose lower limb that allowed her to "prove" what she wanted and said it belonged to that Mummy. Without DNA testing, which Egypt won't allow, there is no way of knowing which broken limbs belong to which of the several mummies found tthere.
""Nefertiti gave birth six times, so her hips should be very broad, but this mummy's hips are very narrow," said Hawass"

http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2003/660/he2.htm Hawas column regarding the controversy.
"As you know, I am appalled by Joan Fletcher's announcement that she had found the mummy of Nefertiti. First of all it has no scientific basis, second she ignored the Supreme Council of Antiquities (SCA) regulations, and third she misled the public. In my last column I quoted a letter from Dr Rosalie David, professor and director of the Centre for Biomedical Egyptology at the School of Sciences in Manchester, in which she stated that Joan Fletcher was not an expert on mummies and that in fact her study was on wigs and hairstyles."

"Following Discovery Channel's coverage of the events, the identification of the Younger Lady's mummy as Nefertiti immediately attracted an eager audience and made headlines around the world. But Egyptologists are not so convinced. In fact, they are divided into two schools of thought. Salima Ikram, author of The Mummy in Ancient Egypt: Equipping the Dead for Eternity, sees the identification as "interesting" and one that will doubtless cause endless speculation. Others express doubt that the remains are those of the legendary queen of beauty. Egyptologist Susan James, who trained at Cambridge University and who spent a long time studying the three mummies, told Discovery Channel, who financed the expedition, " What we know about mummy 61072 would indicate that it is one of the young females of the late 18th dynasty, very probably a member of the royal family. However, physical evidence known and published prior to this expedition indicates the unlikelihood of this being the mummy of Nefertiti. Without any comparative DNA studies, statements of certainty are wishful thinking."

For his part, Secretary-General of the Supreme Council of Antiquities (SCA) Zahi Hawass totally refutes the idea, and describes it as "pure fiction". He accuses Fletcher of lacking in experience, as "a new PhD recipient", and told Al-Ahram Weekly that Fletcher's theory was not based on facts or solid evidence, "only on facial resemblance between the mummy and Nefertiti's bust, and on artistic representations of the Amarna period in which the queen lived".

Hawass asserted, moreover, that the physical resemblance is not significant, "because all the statues of the Amarna era have the same characteristics. Amarna art was idealistic and not realistic," he said, and pointed out that in the Egyptian Museum, there were five of six mummies with the same characteristics. Mamdouh El-Damati, director of the Egyptian Museum, mentioned that this theory was not new, this being the second time that a claim to have discovered Nefertiti's mummy within this group of mummies had been made.
and from here,
http://www.guardians.net/hawass/articles/nefertiti_always_and_forever.htm
"Elaborating on his scepticism about the mummy being that of Nefertiti, Hawass told the Weekly that X-ray analysis carried out previously by himself and Egyptologist Kent Weeks indicated that it was the body of a 16-year-old girl, whereas Nefertiti is thought to have died in her 30s. He explained that, "Nefertiti was involved in the assassination of her husband's successor, Smenkhare, and was later in conflict with King Horemhab who overthrew the monotheistic cult of his predecessor and erased all traces of it. Horemhab would never have allowed Queen Nefertari to be buried in the Valley of Kings," he concluded. "

http://www.sff.net/people/Lisanne/Viking/images/miut.gif

[Bugsy]

Bugsy, the Nefertiti Found program is covered in another topic.
http://www.tiltedmill.com/forums/showthread.php?t=121&highlight=nefertiti

http://www.guardians.net/hawass/articles/nefertiti_always_and_forever.htm
"Elaborating on his scepticism about the mummy being that of Nefertiti, Hawass told the Weekly that X-ray analysis carried out previously by himself and Egyptologist Kent Weeks indicated that it was the body of a 16-year-old girl, whereas Nefertiti is thought to have died in her 30s. He explained that, "Nefertiti was involved in the assassination of her husband's successor, Smenkhare, and was later in conflict with King Horemhab who overthrew the monotheistic cult of his predecessor and erased all traces of it. Horemhab would never have allowed Queen Nefertari to be buried in the Valley of Kings," he concluded. "

http://www.sff.net/people/Lisanne/Viking/images/miut.gifThanks for the info Miut!! I will definitely have to read up more on this. In the Discovery special, it does not ever say definitely it is Nefertiti, it leaves the viewer in the end to make their own decision based on Joan's investigation. I think it is quite possibly one of her children or relatives, as they did say then that the age was between 18 and 25 years, from the preliminary. The X-Ray tech also said they would have to evaluate it all later. Also, on the arm found, they were trying to match the break spots. Nothing was said definitely about it either in the show, this must be how Discovery Channel has avoided the scandal. For the portion above, it was discussed that since this Mummy's face was purposely obliterated, that made even more sense for it to be Nefertiti, because of her enemies. The whole story is just fascinating though, to me. She was one powerful woman for that time period! :)

[Miut]

I did actually see the Discovery program - but wasn't that impressed, to be honest. I might buy into the idea Nefertiti was more the power behind the Aten religion than Akhenaten, but that is all.

The woman has a new degree, in history of wigs, not anything about the pathology of mummies etc.

Doubt it is one of her chikldren - who were also Akhenaten's by the way. ;) After all, in his quest to have a male heir he married, bedded, and made pregnant nearly every one of them, and certainly one died very young in chidbirth. -

Gotta go - will Post later.. Troy the movie calls! :D

[Jayhawk]

From what I've read in Christian Jacq's books, many of the elite women openly diplayed *attributes* that we now keep covered - is this true and will it be a feature of the game?
IIRC it wasn't necessarily openly displaying those attributes, but rather wearing cloth so sheer it didn't make a difference. It actually shows in the tomb carvings/paintings where you see both the pleats in the cloth and the shapes beneath the cloth.

Then again, I remember the temperatures in Egypt, and wearing thin clothes and staying in the shade is a smart thing to do :cool:

However, even though I still wonder how we ever ended up in a culture that feels nudity is more shocking than violence, I doubt TM's going to run the risk of ending up with an X-rated game for historic accuracy.

[EmperorJay]

Maybe someone can explain this to me.

Whenever I see North-African people on TV, they have a turban (for the sun I guess) but they also appear to wear many clothes instead of thin clothes (like you say Jayhawk). Why is that?

I thought it would be that because there are so many layers of clothing the heat could not reach the body itself or something.

[vovan]

I thought it would be that because there are so many layers of clothing the heat could not reach the body itself or something.

That's what I figure. The people of the desert especially, like the bedouin types, who live to the north of egypt, wear a lot of clothes. It protects them from excessive heat from the outside, as well as from sunburns they could get otherwise, and the sand. Not even necessarily a sandstorm, but whenever the wind blows, it ain't pretty if you don't have a lot of clothing wrapped around ya. ;)

[Miut]

The Taureg tribes wear black robes yet I have found black to be impossible to wear in the heat - lighter colored clothes are better, certainly for me.

[Bradius]

I guess different cultures deal with the heat differently. It gets upwards of 100 degrees here with 100% humidity. Drinking plenty of fluids works for me fine. My great-grandparents home was built before A/C and was quite nice even on 100+ days with a nice shady breezeway, but they lived further North (but still very hot in the Summer). A good steady breeze did wonders. However, where I am there can often not be any breeze, so fluids is the best for me. I can even work fine in long sleeves and long pants. For me it is essential as I can burn badly in the sun.

Once I was at camp and it was 120% in the shade. I guess then, you just better be young :eek:

My wife is Russian, so she prefers to stay with A/C to keep cool for 9 months of the year :cool:

[Jayhawk]

Whenever I see North-African people on TV, they have a turban (for the sun I guess) but they also appear to wear many clothes instead of thin clothes (like you say Jayhawk). Why is that?
I think there's several different issues at hand here.

1) IIRC it's mostly the nobles that could afford these sheer fabrics, and I gather they were mostly worn indoors (i.e. out of the sun).
2) I really doubt many Egyptians would be out in the midday sun. Adobe houses keep fairly cool, unlike bedu who are out and about most of the day and live in tents. Light clothes would be a valid option.
3) Last but not least, most current Egyptians are islamic (or coptic), their religion also forbids them to show as much of their body as the ancient Egyptians did.