Wishful Thinking: What non-Mediterranean culture would you like to see explored?

[Afterburner]

Here's a hoary old question that pops up all the time in the other Citybuilding forums around the net:

The folks at Tilted Mill have released Children of the Nile. It is everything we, the fans, hope it to be...and more! New fans are drawn in! A revival of simulation-based PC games flourishes! The fine folks at Tilted Mill are heady with their success, and have become millionaires overnight!

And YOU (yes, you) log in to the forums. And you see that you have a private message. You check your private messages. And it's from Tilted Mill. And it sez:

"We're about to start work on a new Immortal Cities game. And we held a lottery. And YOU (yes, you) were chosen. So we're going to ask you which culture YOU (yes, you) would like to see us explore in the next game. You let us know, and that's what we'll do. But there's one rule: It can't be any culture we've done so far. Rome, Greece, and China are out."

Which culture would you pick?

Me, I think India would be a fascinating culture to explore. Civilization was springing up around the Ganges River in India around the same time it was springing up around the Yangtze River in China. India has a long, interesting history that is largely unexplored in Western popular culture. It would definitely be interesting to see the progress of centuries from an Indian perspective.

[Celebithil Dae]

South American, pre-spanish

[mouse]

India would be nice :) Japan would be nice :D Middle Eastern, Meso-American several to chose from ;)

[Azeem]

Persia. Another major civilization which needs a bit of a spotlight.

[Keith]

My A-LIST would be most interested in Japan, followed by Persia, Ottoman Empire, or Babylon.

Japan would be interesting militarilly with all the conflict in their past history, and the interesting buildings and culture.

Persia would be a good one considering it's size and conflict, especially with the Greeks.

The Ottoman Empire which lasted for as long as the Roman Empire and all the possibilities there.

Babylon for its uniqueness, hanging gardens, Tower of Babel, etc.

My B-LIST would be India and Meso-America.

Other suggestions I've seen are Alexander the Great and Vikings. I still feel that the Vikings would be poor choice mainly because they didn't really build cities. They raided, traded, and when they colonized areas like Ireland, Normandy, and Kiev they tended to blend in with the existing culture.

Alexander the Great was more of a conqueror occupier even though he had a huge empire and influence.


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[EmperorJay]

I would like a citybuilder which takes place in the Middle East and spans from say, 3000 BC to 1500 AD. So it would include Babylonians, Persians and muslim architecture.

I would also like an Aztec/Incan/Mayan citybuilder.

[Ammurit]

I second the votes for India, Persia, Japan, and pre-colonial South America. I also think that Poseidon opened the door for more mythological city builder settings (although I like to think of Atlantis as historical, rather than mythological :) ). The buildings in these games would lend themselves more to the imagination of the game designers.

[Afterburner]

I also think that Poseidon opened the door for more mythological city builder settings (although I like to think of Atlantis as historical, rather than mythological :) ). The buildings in these games would lend themselves more to the imagination of the game designers.

You may have something there.

I recall purchasing Majesty because the box claimed that it was a "fantasy sim." Only it was nothing of the sort. It was a real-time strategy game, like Command and Conquer or Total Annihilation. You built structures that spawned units, and building certain structures in combination would let you build other, more expensive structures that would crank out more powerful units, and so on.

Yawn.

While I certainly think there are enough interesting cultures in the real world to keep us going for a good, long time, I certainly wouldn't be upset in any way if we got a real, honest-to-Bob CotN-style fantasy sim. Your mission: to build cities across a vast magical empire, where your citizens could be elves, dwarves, centaurs, and so on, and where each city is built on fantastical landscape (Elven cities in the trees, for example, or dwarven mines, or cities built on a basalt island in the middle of a river of lava, and so on).

Yeah, that would rock my little world.

[Nefermenu]

Easy question for me: Meso-American. Incas, Mayas and Aztecs :) No contest here ;)

[Ammurit]

You may have something there.

I recall purchasing Majesty because the box claimed that it was a "fantasy sim." Only it was nothing of the sort. It was a real-time strategy game, like Command and Conquer or Total Annihilation.

I stumbled across that one too while searching for new city builders to tide me over. The buildings looked nice, but the game wasn't great. Fortunately I just played the demo. My need for new games to build buildings got me into games like Age of Empires, Age of Kings, and Age of Mythology. The buildings are great, but they cannot take the place of a city builder.

[Stringbags]

the British Empire

[GillB]

Not actually a civilisation, but mediaeval Europe would be cool, building the great Cathedrals and castles; failing that, then Japan would be second choice though I have to say that a fantasy citybuilder would be wonderful too.

[C Franziskus]

... I have to say that a fantasy citybuilder would be wonderful too.

as in futuristic, colonies on new planets etc. ?

[EmperorJay]

I think I would consider buying a regular fantasy CB, with dwarves and elves and such. But I won't be interested at all in a Science Fiction one.

[Atlantean Relic]

LOTR like. Building Ministh Ithiel or Osgililith.

[Afterburner]

as in futuristic, colonies on new planets etc. ?

That wasn't what he was talking about (see one of my earlier messages in this thread to see what he was talking about), but that would also be way cool.

If I had the money to fund my own software game development company, the FIRST game I would produce would be a city builder-type game that was themed around colonizing a distant star system.

You'd be in charge of a colonizing effort, looking to expand Earth's interstellar empire. So you'd be in charge of founding capital cities on new planets. Some of the planets would be very earthlike, but other planets would have one or more hostile elements: toxic atmosphere, no atmosphere, extremely high surface temperatures, extremely low surface temperatures, high gravity, and so on.

There would be some in-game method of actually giving you a sense that you really WERE colonizing some distant, possibly hostile planet. Like, for planets with toxic atmospheres (or no atmospheres), you wouldn't be able to get your "housing" developed past the Large Shack stage without building giant protective domes over them. For planets with high gravity, all the buildings would look different (short and squat) vs. other planets. And your productivity would be way down compared to earthlike planets due to the increased strain on human bodies from working in such conditions.

And there could be a colony system like in Zeus or Emperor, where you land on a planet which is missing certain critical resources. So you fly to the moon, or to another planet in the same system, which has that resource, build a small colony there, and then start shipping resources back to the main planet.

There'd also be alien flora and fauna to deal with (like the wolves in Caesar 3 or the Xenofungus in Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri).

Whenever I've played games like MOO or Galactic Civilizations, it's the colonizing of the planets that has always been the most interesting aspect to me. So this would be that particular facet of a game in close-up.

[EmperorJay]

If the "he" you're reffering to in the first paragraph is GillB, Afterburner, she's a she ;)

One of the main things that made the citybuilding games so attractive, for me at least, was the fact that they were based on something real (or something that had been real in a far past). I don't know if something futuristic would appeal to me, it doesn't in books or movies. :confused:

[Celebithil Dae]

Im not much for Sci. Fiction, as in futuristic stuff. Not my cup o' tea. I would like to see a fantasy (elvish, dwarvish type deal) game out there (yeah, LOMish) that an historical type stuff is what attracts me.

[GillB]

I meant fantasy as in Age of Wonders type fantasy, not scifi which isn't my sort of thing at all. The colonising a new planet game you're describing sounds very like Space Colony ...

[Jayhawk]

Sounds very like Space Colony ;)

My personal favourite would be a Mughal one.
Och, to build the Taj Mahal...
and to actually out it's partner on the opposite shore...

[Niempie]

I would like a citybuilder which takes place in the Americas (North and/or South) before the "discovery" by the old world. :rolleyes:

[Lannes]

Pre-columbian Central and South America would be a good one I suppose. Plenty of scope there. I could also imagine a city builder focusing on Norman England and Ireland and Renaissance Italy, but that'd mean getting in more historical rather than cultural content.

Lannes

[Lord Huh]

lord Huh would like to see the fabled lives of the huh dynasty. It ruled in a fairly large "empire" for about 200 years.....or so the legend goes....

[Jayhawk]

A solid medieval one would be nice, I guess.

Personally, within medieval times, I'd like to see one set in the Hanze period (setting of the Patrician game) focusing on creating settlements, and turning them into cities, converting the pagans to Christianity, having Viking raiders try and trash your trade settlements, and basically setting up a trade empire in the Baltic, North Sea, (and a bit further south) area.

Building monasteries and the odd church/cathedral would add to the flavour of the game. As would a bit of fortress (early castle) building.

[Gumps]

For me my preferences would be any of the following, in no particular order:

Byzantines
The Ottoman Empire
The Holy Roman Empire
European Middle Ages
Babylonians
Persians
Japanese

[Elvenwarrior2001]

What Jayhawk just said sounds wicked kewl! :D

Elven

[Atlantean Relic]

India would be a change

[Elvenwarrior2001]

You could also go Australia. That would be intersting...problem is...you'd be Brits probably enslaving the Aussies. Hmm...bad idea. (Nothing against the Brits, I have English blood in me, myself. ;))

Elven

[Rachelc258]

The Indus Valley civilization would be very interesting! Unfortunately, they hardly know anything about them. Definitely not enough to do a game off of.

Hmm.... Mesopotamia would be interesting, I guess. My interest is pretty firmly set in the Mediterranean. Maybe a game set during the roman republic (I am not really a great big fan of the empire). Hmm... Maybe the turks?

Italy during 1500s might be interesting.
Probably been done a thousand times, but maybe something slightly more modern, like revolutionary era america.

Or gold rush era California :) Yes, I could definitely see myself running san francisco in the 1850s. Hey, maybe I could be Emperor Norton I. (Emperor of the United States and protector of Mexico) (a bit of san francisco lore)

[Keith]

Hey! They could do a game based on Canada!

Oh, wait, half the game would have to be in english and the other half in french....forget I mentioned it. ;) :D
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[thetruth]

no Zulu? or the many Islamic civilizations from people like the Moors

[Azeem]

The Zulu weren't major city-builders. But if you're interested in an African civilization, then the Mali Empire would be most interesting. They were a very powerful force in West Africa. Nubia, Ife, and Benin would also be interesting.

[imhotep3147]

Personally, I would like to see a Meso-American/S. American culture game that pulls aspects of the previous CBs. Like the monument building from Pharaoh/Cleo and the ability to give a sacrifice to the gods like in Zeus (he he he.) Being an archaeology major has me more interested in actual cultures (mostly ancient) however I think the idea about the Space-type CB where your housing and production is limited by the atmospheric conditions and such....( I don't remember who posted it but it was an awesome and well thought out gameplan!) Maybe as a random disaster a comet or meteor could pass by and wreak havoc or affect the city's religion....oh the possibilities of City Building....BTW I hope to see great things from Tilted Mill in the future.

[thetruth]

The Zulu weren't major city-builders. But if you're interested in an African civilization, then the Mali Empire would be most interesting. They were a very powerful force in West Africa. Nubia, Ife, and Benin would also be interesting.


Good point didn't realize it was about building, but in africa and middle east there were great major city builders among the muslims

[Azeem]

There's a very long list of possibile non-Mediterranean civilizations for this genre :) :

The Maya
The Inca
The Aztecs
Persia
Babylon
Sumer
Arabia
Mali
Nubia
China
Japan
Korea
The Khmer
India

[Nero Would]

I think of the major ancient civilisations that have not already been covered by the citybuilder series, I would most like to see India. Perhaps starting with the Indus valley civilisation, and continuing through the Moghul Empire.

[Rachelc258]

<<most like to see India. Perhaps starting with the Indus valley civilisation, and continuing through the Moghul Empire.
>>

I think it would hard to do "india". Maybe certain regions of india. Northern india would be interesting, but I imagine it would be difficult, given how little they know about the Harrappa civilization. But from the later vedic days, it could be done as well. You know, enlargening your little republic or kingdom by performing a horse sacrifice (where you let a horse roam around and claim the land that it wanders on... <g>), etc

[Jayhawk]

I think the easiest bit of India to do is the Moghul Empire, if only because it speaks to more people's imagination. Face it, there are probably very few people that do not knwo the Taj Mahal, but a lot more who can't tell you a thing about the Southern Indian temples.

I fear this problem of identification will seriously limit the options for a city builder game. We have already seen it with the City Builder series, where Rome and Egypt were the most popular ones, because popular media allow people to easily identify with these cultures. Greece and China are much less readily identifiable. Where most peopel will be able to rattle off the names of half a dozen or more Roman emperors or Egyptian Pharaohs, far fewer can do the same with Greek or Chinese rulers.

Whatever game will be next, it will fail miserably, if people can not identify with its subject matter. Sumer is a wonderful idea, but how many people know the difference between Ianana and Enlil?
And even more important, how many care?

[Jacquou Le]

How's about multi-cultures combination?

[Azeem]

I fear this problem of identification will seriously limit the options for a city builder game. We have already seen it with the City Builder series, where Rome and Egypt were the most popular ones, because popular media allow people to easily identify with these cultures. Greece and China are much less readily identifiable. Where most peopel will be able to rattle off the names of half a dozen or more Roman emperors or Egyptian Pharaohs, far fewer can do the same with Greek or Chinese rulers.

And even more important, how many care?

That is not neccessarily true. Other cultures have begun to gain popularity. Particularly the Meso-american and East Asian civilizations. People don't know a grain of salt of Chinese history, yet there is still a fascination with its culture and mystique (a bit of "Orientalism" there :p ). There is also a growing attraction to the mysterious Maya and Aztec civilizations, especially among the Latino community here in the Southwestern United States.

[Just_married]

I think they need to make a Aztec one where the Sapinsh come and you fight them and you fight other Aztecs but you pick from a Aztec tribe like Texcoco or Tenocheclan.I woud love that.

[Azeem]

There would be some interesting campaign possibilities there. :) You could also perhaps choose the side of the Tlaxcalans and fight the Aztecs (or even conquer Tenochtitlan).

[Bach]

I would like to see Victorian city building game or a Native American city building game North or South America. I would also like to see a Middle ages city building game :)

[Jayhawk]

Other cultures have begun to gain popularity.
True, but it's a slow and laboriuos process. If you play your cards too soon, your game will fail. Just look at Emperor: Rise of the Middle Kingdom, which has a wealth of information on China, but probably is the least selling CB game so far (which I think is a crying shame, btw, as it's a lovely game).

Similarly, Theocracy (IIRC) was set in Mesoamerica and failed miserably.

Still it's possible, although I feel current media emphasis has brought us back to ancient Greek, more specifically: Troy ;)

[Keith]

True, but it's a slow and laboriuos process. If you play your cards too soon, your game will fail. Just look at Emperor: Rise of the Middle Kingdom, which has a wealth of information on China, but probably is the least selling CB game so far (which I think is a crying shame, btw, as it's a lovely game).

Similarly, Theocracy (IIRC) was set in Mesoamerica and failed miserably.

Still it's possible, although I feel current media emphasis has brought us back to ancient Greek, more specifically: Troy ;)
Troy would be hard to reproduce, since so little is really known about them. The fall of Troy occurred nearly 400 years before the Iliad and Odyssey immortalized it. Most considered the city a myth for a thousand years or more. The ruins weren't even found until around 100+ years ago.

The Trojans themselves weren't really a Greek culture as I understand it so you couldn't base any assumptions on life there using the Greeks as a model.

Someone must have recently gone to see the movie "Troy". :D
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[Jayhawk]

Not really, Keith, but I've seen the media hype and the effect is had on people suddenly writing books on the subject (or existing books being reissued).

I'm pretty sure there will be at least one game out in the near future based on the movie. I seriously doubt it will be a citybuilder, but expect a LotR style combat game.

[NeilV]

How about a civ type one you start as cave men or around that time and depending on what research paths you take which civilisation culture you end up with. With the game ending say 2001 To cut out the Sci-Fi element that some people don’t like that way the game may appeal to a lot of diffrent players i know the civ type games did this but they weren’t really city building games they were empire building games so a lot of the times you city was just a picture. :cool:

[swampthing]

I like the idea of Pre-Columbian America game. It would probably have to be limited to one area, like you couldnt have Mexica and Peru, you'd need to pick one. I would go with Mexico. Start with the Olmecs, move on to the Toltecs, Mayas, and End with the Middle Aztecs. That way you dont have to worry about the Spanish or that sort of thing.

I recently read a book about the discovery of the Americas, and it said that there is pretty strong evidence that people from Japan, China, and East Africa reached, and influenced, Olmec culture. Perhaps there would be a way to reflect this... Maybe as some sort of Victory condition... To build a great temple to the newly arived Gods... :p

[Bugsy]

I would go with Mexico. Start with the Olmecs, move on to the Toltecs, Mayas, and End with the Middle Aztecs. That way you dont have to worry about the Spanish or that sort of thing.

I love that idea. I'd also love to do city building in Medieval times, pre-Renaissance.

[SnowDove]

I'm new to this forum so Hey All!!

I'd also love to see a game designed around the Pre-Spanish South American civilizations. And I think one game could encompass all three effectively.

I think one of the earlier posts mentioned the British Colonies? I hadn't considered this but it would definately prove a challenging game. Their colonies were spread over such diverse cultures that the techniques you would use in Africa would have to dffer from the techniques in India or North America.

Typically I prefer the games based on Ancient cultures but I also like some sci-fi/ fantasy :)
I suppose I should just admit that I'll try ANY new city-building scenario - just bring 'em on! :D

[swampthing]

I'm new to this forum so Hey All!!

I suppose I should just admit that I'll try ANY new city-building scenario - just bring 'em on! :D
Hey! I just joined a few days ago but Hi anyways. :)

I think that just about somes it up for everyone. Whatever game is made, we will play it. We all have details that we would like, but overall, as long as we still build cities, we'l play em.

[Cironir]

The Aztecs would be my choice, too, though Central Europe 800-1500 CE was a fascinating epoch, too. Hmm, actually, it's surprising that there has been no Aztecs-based building game yet -- this should also be commercially successful.

(I know Afterburner excluded those, but I really wouldn't mind a Roman or Greek city-builder with Tilted Mill's new engine/concept. Well, based on what we know of it so far, that is. If Greek, preferably minus the "too much" of mythology that Zeus featured (in other words: no gods walking through the streets.))

[Jayl]

I personally would love to see a Meso-American city builder, but also would like to see a Indus Vally city builder or maybe a Sumerian/Bablyonian city builder.

In the Sumerian one, you could build ziggurats, The Hanging Gardens, Gates of Ishtar, Royal Cemetery [Large temples with a Ziggurat in the middle], The Tower of Babel, very large statues, royal tombs ect. A good campaign could be the re-telling of Gilgamesh...

You have many gods, so religion would be something like Egypt, and you have many military and trade options in the that civilization. The game could end when the King Hammurabi dies and his mighty empire splits back up into city states until the Hittites come... then you can play Children of the Nile again to continue the story... ;)

[Eddy]

That does sound interesting actually!

[Jayhawk]

I think one of the earlier posts mentioned the British Colonies?
Try the classic Colonization ;)

Hmm, actually, it's surprising that there has been no Aztecs-based building game yet -- this should also be commercially successful.
Theocracy was set in Mesoamerica.

[Janmeryet]

What about something more nomadic but empire-building, like the all conquering hordes of the Mongolian/Turkic peoples, which may lead into a city building thing later? I love the idea of one from any Islamic culture, Byzantines and Ottomans etc, and also India (Moghuls). Or Polynesians - explore the world's islands and settle?? Just playing with ideas here...

[Keith]

In the past, I would say that sort of nomadic game would not be an option in citybuilder game. The primary goal of the game was at the time to "build a city."

However, with the new game engine and design something lke that would be possible where nomadic or other cultures that didn't build great cities, like the Vikings, would be possible since the focus of the game has shifted to a more societal development game.

In that case, the Vikings might be a good choice, for something "new", since they did live in established permanent villages, and often occupied and eventually blended into what would become cities in the future such as those in Ireland (Dublin) and Russia (Kiev).

However, I would still prefer a new game on the Roman Empire or even the Roman Republic.:D
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[Anguille]

I am a big Mexico fan...
However, i can't remember any game about India....this is such an old and great civilization with many many gods, the Mahradjahs and a wide range of animals (tigers, elephants, monkeys and so forth).

That game would really make my heart jump...(besides...i was born there ;) )

[Anguille]

A solid medieval one would be nice, I guess.

Personally, within medieval times, I'd like to see one set in the Hanze period (setting of the Patrician game) focusing on creating settlements, and turning them into cities, converting the pagans to Christianity, having Viking raiders try and trash your trade settlements, and basically setting up a trade empire in the Baltic, North Sea, (and a bit further south) area.

Building monasteries and the odd church/cathedral would add to the flavour of the game. As would a bit of fortress (early castle) building.

You should check: Medieval Lords!!!

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[Darkoracle]

the norse would be great or even england

[Josh]

(this may have been said before but this thread has been around for ages and I dont want to check)

The New World City Builder

Build a new colony in the Americas, pick your nationality each with it's own attributes and campaigns, for example pick the spanish and play many humid missions in florida and the carribian trying to turn a profit trading and growing. or pick the british and play in the new england area, mining logging farming and whatnot to turn a profit, or play as the french in canada and just try and thrive while surviving the harsh winters.

Raise and army and fight raids by hostile indians (every map isnt hostile, certain cities get started near different tribes, some friendly (you can trade with them) and some hostile (regular raids) and possibly fight insurgents of your own, freedom fighters trying to take over your city... or possibly join the freedom fighters and prepare to fight both the mother country and give up many of your men in times of war.

The mother country might regularly request goods gold and services, something your expected to fullfill

The amount of fame and stability your city has gained will affect the number of new settlers will join you, lose a battle and people might not want to risk living in your town

Build efficient harbor towns, mail distribution, farming communities, mills and lumber outposts (possibly using rivers as a natural energy) invest in mining operations (possibly proving fruitfull, possibly a bust) build forts. plantations, great houses, shops like blacksmiths, potters, glass blowers, printing presses (news which can help you or hurt you) stables, taverns, churches, colleges, schools, etc

Start your town from a flegling establishment, with a boatload of people some stored grain, and fight to survive your first winter, then turn that boatload of passengers into a triving city with great estates, great prominent figures and all the comforts of the motherland

I think it sounds fun.

[Wen Kha-Ne]

There are some great ideas here and it is obvious that the possibilities are limitless, but with so many of these topics around, I won't bother repeating my next obsession (Ahem..India) once Children of the Nile gets crammed up into my ever-shrinking hard-disk.

We really need to explore some more cultures for these before we go back to Rome and Greece (Non-mythical) however tempting it is. So why not start with India!

I can picture it now...Children of the Nile Ganges. ;)

[Josh]

That could only be done if they strongly implemented the caste system, if they ignored it india would lose its... well not charm, but what makes India unique. (well again not unique because many places had systems like this, but it just wouldnt be india without it, know what I mean?)

[Azeem]

India is extremely diverse. The fact that most of us still think of it as one entity shows how little we all know about it. ;)

[Wen Kha-Ne]

Which is exactly why it would make a great CB! Well, not just that, but different empires, different principalities mean we can go back to the city-state approach, even a difference between North Indian and South Indian music! From the Indus to the East India Company, spanning a huge period of history, boasting more religions than Jerusalem (perhaps ;) ) and more historic monuments than a Texas fair, India needs time to shine.

I wouldn't mind a Mesoamerican one either, but it would have to be a major empire, because of the simple fact of roads. This is where the Inca come top. Topa Inca, infact! Oops, sorry. :p

[Eddy]

The problem with India is that people just don't know about it and won't be as mesmerized by it. I had this problem with the demo for Emperor. While I grant that it had some of the prettiest graphics and you could make attractive cities, it just didn't grab me because the concepts were too foriegn to me. The idea of family ancestors walking through the streets bothered me because I am far too secular. Feng shui in my eye is just some Hollywood fad, yet both concepts were intrinsic to the playing of the game. Zeus wasn't as bad, but again with the gods walking through the streets, it didn't seem as right, but at least it wasn't totally alien to me.

Pharaoh got it closest to my view. The gods, such as they are, don't directly interact with the city, but instead are more ephemeral. Yes, you can get blessings and curses from them if you don't pay them enough attention, but I was able to justify this by attributing natural causes and making the point that the PEOPLE believed it was the gods doing this. That doesn't stretch my limit too far.

The other thing to be wary of is that the bulk of the audience is North American (sorry Europeans and Australians). North Americans are notorious for not being familiar with other cultures, with one country in particular being especially bad. A game that is set too far from what the North Americans understand and believe in is going to fail.

Rome and Greece are sure fire because our modern civilization is directly descended from them. Egypt, while being more mysterious, is still fairly easy to understand. Medieval Europe isn't too hard either. Meso America is starting to push it, especially if you involve the idea of human sacrifice. India to me just seems too remote, much like China or Japan. Their culture is just so far removed from ours that it won't succeed. India had the caste system and this will not fly in the modern world. Even though I personally believe the caste system still exists in the United States (will you ever have a chance of being as wealthy as Paris Hilton?), the average person doesn't and will not like the fact that by being born as an untouchable, the game character is locked in that role for the rest of their life through no fault of their own.

Tilted Mill would do best to stick close to home, at least until it has a solid name behind them.

[Wen Kha-Ne]

I also prefer Pharaoh in the god and ancestor aspect. I really didn't like that touch, and I preferred just blessing from time to time. Luckily though, Impressions and now Tilted Mill has a large European fanbase. I don't think making a second game with stunning features will be a financial failure will it?

I just remembered that castes came in around AD 100. If people really didn't like that idea (they seem fine with everything but human sacrifice and naked dancers) then just set it before then. India has plenty of time before that.

[Gordon Farrell]

Hey it's great to see this thread revived. This is a perennially fascinating topic to speculate on for us city-building-types! I love the idea of a Medieval-Renaissance City Builder but it looks like Monte Cristo Games is going to give us that game sometime this fall.

But I really thing EmperorJay hit on something cool with his idea of a city-builder called:

TROY

I think this is a topic that could really fire up the gaming public's imagination. Everyone's heard of it but nobody's done it before. Now, it's been pointed out that since we know so little about Troy, it would be hard to design...


Troy would be hard to reproduce, since so little is really known about them. The fall of Troy occurred nearly 400 years before the Iliad and Odyssey immortalized it. Most considered the city a myth for a thousand years or more. The ruins weren't even found until around 100+ years ago.

The Trojans themselves weren't really a Greek culture as I understand it so you couldn't base any assumptions on life there using the Greeks as a model.


One of the challenges facing historical game developers is the fact that the artists often find that faithfully reproducing real architecture and costumes is creatively limiting. One of the things Impressions hoped to accomplish in Zeus, and ES hoped to accomplish in AoM, was letting the artists have more creative leeway.

Since TROY would have to be invented from scratch, with Greek, Hittite and Pontic influences, the artists' imaginations would be really utilized effectively. And the end result wouldn't look like Greece or Rome, but a fascinating + exotic civilization from the fabled past.

Definitely some tantalizing options there...

[EmperorJay]

It was Jayhawk who mentioned it :) .

Troy does have the potentional to be interesting but what sort of campaign can you build around it? Building only Troy gets boring and what other Trojan cities are really famours?

[Wen Kha-Ne]

That's the problem. It would be a great and catchy title (Rome: Total War is pretty eye-catching isn't it? :p ) and you could feature (hmm!) the Trojan wars, but then we suddenly find we have run out of ideas and it would become a fantasy game. You could centre (ahh, English spelling) the whole thing on the numerous sieges of Troy and have missions, but they would certainly lose replay value.

Also, as a citybuilder, it would be flawed (but suggesting this in a non-mediterranean thread could be called that too :p ) and would probably do better as a different sort of strategy. Love the concept though.

[Cironir]

Also, as a citybuilder, it would be flawed (but suggesting this in a non-mediterranean thread could be called that too :p ) and would probably do better as a different sort of strategy. Love the concept though.

But CorN isn't going to be a city-builder the way we understand it! :) It will be about people rather than structures, so you, as the player, will probably respond to the needs and moods of your citizens. Granted, in a round-about way you did this in C3, Pharaoh, Zeus, Emperor, too, but in CotN (and presumably other games of the Immortal Cities series), you'll be more concerned with the needs of your people (needs that may unexpectedly change) than the perfect layout of your city. Of course, I'm speculating here and may be well off. :)

[Azeem]

That could only be done if they strongly implemented the caste system, if they ignored it india would lose its... well not charm, but what makes India unique. (well again not unique because many places had systems like this, but it just wouldnt be india without it, know what I mean?)

Another display of how little we know about India. ;) The caste system existed in varying degrees in different parts of India. In some places it was extraordinarily well-defined while in other places, it's not so clear. Then there is also the wide variety of "Hinduisms" (Hinduism is not one single 'religion'), different religions that rejected caste systems (such as Jainism, Sikhism, Buddhism, and Islam), and many different cultures from region to region.

As far as non-Mediterranean cultures go, most are right when they say that North Americans are notorious for not being familiar with other cultures (and may associate them with various negative stereotypes). However, there is a bit of a growing interest in non-Mediterranean cultures (otherwise, certain Asian religions in America would have simply vanished completely). This is true elsewhere in the world. Interest in Chinese civilization is indeed on the rise (especially with "The Art of War" and "Romance of the Three Kingdoms" becoming some of the most widely read books in the world, not including China and Japan). Interest in other cultures is especially growing among intellectual circles. Of course, it still will be quite a while before people in America start becoming highly enthused by Asian culture. But it's not too far off before people actually realize that the earth is round. ;)

[Wen Kha-Ne]

Very clever way of saying Europe is great there, Azeem. :p

[Gordon Farrell]

Oops! Sorry, Jayhawk! After all our years together on HGS forums, how could I forget?!

Also:

Troy is not a Mediterranean civilization. It's Anatolian!

[Josh]

How does my comment display ignorance? Wouldnt a game supposedly detailing an Indian civilization be historicly incorrect if it ignored the concept completely, if everyone could just move up to grand estates regardless of being a Harijan?

Im sure there were exceptions to the effect of the caste system, of course, its a rediculously large country, but the exceptions can't be made the rule.

Here is a statistic I just pulled up "India - Hindu 81.3%, Islam 12%, Christian 2.3%, Sikh 1.9%, other (including Buddhists and Jains) 2.5%" Are you going to make the game around the 80 percent, or the 20? (which one might assume was even more unbalanced a century or two ago)

The system is still one of the strongest old world castes in place, to ignore it would be a disgrace.

[Keith]

North Americans are notorious for not being familiar with other culturesNow that's a old stereotypical generalization that just isn't true. It is more safe to say that we just don't care. ;)

[Azeem]

Now that's a old stereotypical generalization that just isn't true.

As an American, I must beg to differ. ;) Especially when half of my peers (in my region, at least) don't know where the US is on the map. :p

[Wen Kha-Ne]

Troy is not a Mediterranean civilization. It's Anatolian!

Wouldn't that be like saying Egypt wasn't Mediterranean but Ethiopian or Nubian? ;) Why do you have to exclude poor old Troy from the club? If they were close enough to be invaded by Greece more than once, it must be Mediterranean! That's my logic (or lack thereof). :p

[Josh]

As an American, I must beg to differ. ;) Especially when half of my peers (in my region, at least) don't know where the US is on the map. :p

Now I Know thats not true, admitedly a lot of Americans only learn geography once it pertains to them (Read: once we have troops there) but a lot of people (in my peer group atleast) are quite intrested in other cultures, as demonstrated by all the channels dedicated to them, and I would say out Social Studies departments are now doing a much better job teaching things on a global level, expanding out of "world" meaning european history and into asia and africa to teach a true World history class.


PS: I would like to take a moment to thank Impressions Studios for about six or seven odd "A+" final grades and the hours of free time of never having to study and already knowing most of the units. You really should court some schools to see if you can get used as a learning aid :) I loved those encyclopedias, make sure to include them, (not for me anymore, but for the next kid playing your games)

[Wen Kha-Ne]

I remember once, an old school (stop singing now!) had a demo of...I think Pharaoh but it could have been C3, on a very old computer. To think if the kids actually used it they would surely become an egyptologist. The one time I remember someone being allowed to use it, and all they did was complain that it didn't work (they didn't build any roads) and they entered a pretty...immature name.

Of course people who read the instructions gain a lot from it. Before Pharaoh I knew a moderate amount about Egypt, but not how their cities functioned for example, nor had I ever known that a Mastaba was the predecessor to the Pyramid. I'm glad I knew how to build roads.

[Jayhawk]

Oops! Sorry, Jayhawk! After all our years together on HGS forums, how could I forget?!
I don't know? You tell me? ;)
Hi Gordon. Howzit?

Troy is not a Mediterranean civilization. It's Anatolian!
Hmmm, it's situated on the Mediterranean, so that makes it a Mediterranean civilisation in my books. Although, I'll second the motion that it's not a Hellene one. :cool:

[Gordon Farrell]

Hmmm, it's situated on the Mediterranean, so that makes it a Mediterranean civilisation in my books. Although, I'll second the motion that it's not a Hellene one. :cool:

Look at your map, buddy. Ain't no Mediterranean around Troy. :p

[Bizkit]

Troy is on the west coast on Turkey, close to the waters of the Aegean Sea. The Aegean Sea is part of the larger Mediterranean Sea, just like the Ionian or Adriatic seas.
Therefore, Troy is Mediterranean. :p

[Gordon Farrell]

It isn't much closer to the Mediterranean than Romania is. Is Romania a Mediterranean civ?

[Wen Kha-Ne]

Look at your map, buddy. Ain't no Mediterranean around Troy. :p

First of all the sea level was different (even during different stages of Troy) at that time (much of Kent was underwater if you know about Britain!), so it is most likely it was closer to the sea (ever seen a documentary on Troy and they will probably go on about the cliff nearby being left by the sea and such)

Any port on the Mediterranean sea is mediterranean (Though Istanbul is debatable. ;) ). No-one can say the Aegean is not mediterranean. Since Troy was so close to it, this is why everyone usually regards Troy as mediterranean. To call it Anatolian makes it out to be a near-desert city.

Now how did we get into this again? :p

[Jayhawk]

Look at your map, buddy. Ain't no Mediterranean around Troy.
Hmmm... looking at my map, the Mediterranean starts at the Pillars of Hercules, and stops at Hellespont. If my memory serves me well Troy/Hisarlik was a port city on the Western coast of Asia Minor, South of Hellespont. As for it now being further in land, the same holds true for Ephesus, which is another Mediterranean port (at least I assume you will agree there?).

It isn't much closer to the Mediterranean than Romania is. Is Romania a Mediterranean civ?
Romania is on the Black Sea, which is a distinct basin (and probably flooded much later than the Med, c. 5000BC, rather than at the end of the Eocene?). All the other seas in the Mediterranean are still part of the Med at large, much like being on the North Sea doesn't exclude a country from being part of the NATO ;)

Ergo, Troy is a Mediterranean port.

Switching smoothly to non-Mediterranean, what bit of Indian history would you like to see, Gordon? I personally would love a Mughal one.

I feel it has all the colour and richness in history, art and monuments that have formed the basis for games like Pharaoh and now Children of the Nile. True, the period was much shorter, but it's certainly recogniseable for people. Much more readily so, than say, ancient Assyria and Babylon.

[Keith]

I think that most people tend to use the term "Mediterranean" in the broadest sense. Referring to Troy as a Mediterranean culture is probably acceptable. You generally don't hear references to a "Aegean Culture."

Map:

http://homepage.mac.com/cparada/GML/000Images/004maps/troytroad.gif

http://homepage.mac.com/cparada/GML/Troy.html

http://members.aol.com/dheitm8612/horus2.gif
Keith Heitmann (mailto:dheitm8612@aol.com) a.k.a Nuthin-in-khamun
Listen to the music of the CityBuilders while online:
Caesar III Music Player (http://www.geocities.com/kheitmann1/C3Player.htm)•Pharaoh Music Jukebox (http://members.aol.com/dheitm8612/java/pharaoh.htm)•Zeus Music Jukebox (http://members.aol.com/dheitm8612/java/Zeus.htm)•Emperor's Music Box (http://members.aol.com/dheitm8612/java/erotmk.htm)•Children of the Nile Musicbox (http://members.aol.com/dheitm8612/java/cotn/cotn.htm)•
Children of the Nile & Quiz (http://panzerblitz.proboards9.com/index.cgi#test)

[Wen Kha-Ne]

I am glad i'm not the only one who likes India. The music is fantastic, the art is amazing, the cities gleam in the midday sun (well, some of them :p ) and so do their many monuments.

They have a large area of influence and foreign scholars (mainly Chinese and Arabic, I believe) would often travel there to bring back the most advanced philosophies and mathematics of their time. You have to admit, any nation who invented the decimal point should get historical recognition.

Different empires of India expanded their borders and they have more than their fair share of enemies. They also have more than their fair share of religions for the strategy of balancing them.

There would be trends of religion and architecture based on who was currently ruling, and there would be very little stopping one kingdom's army adding another principality to their own, until they would be powerful enough to own a city like Dehli.

It also has many rivers, different terrain and climates to keep the citybuilder-compatibility in check, and being the fashioners of some of the most luxurious items on the planet until the 20th century, trade will be a must.

I hope you're making notes, TM. :p

[Maatkaamun]

My vote goes to MesoAmerica first, India next, then Babalonian or Sumerian. Then maybe Japanese.

Speaking of MesoAmerica, here's a question...
--> Does any one know which Mesoamerican culture first used agriculture? And, is agriculture considered a requirement for building monuments? Is it sufficient, or does it also require a beaurocracy or metal tools?

[Maatkaamun]

Second question:

Several people have mentioned Theocracy. Is it still available and is it worth checking out?

[Bizkit]

Hunting and gathering, then agriculture (plus taking care of domesticised animals). Humans started building monuments some time after that. I guess agriculture is a requirement, you need it to sustain a large population (I've never seen monuments built by small, isolated populations - maybe the statues on Easter Island). If food is plentiful, people can start thinking about other things.
You can't really talk about bureaucracy in the Iron Age. ;) They started off with tools made from carved rock or bone, then switched to metals (both for agriculture and weaponry).
Theocracy is much like an evolved AoE: Conquerors. And if games from 1994 are still available, why shouldn't Theocracy be?

[Wen Kha-Ne]

My vote goes to MesoAmerica first, India next, then Babalonian or Sumerian. Then maybe Japanese.

Speaking of MesoAmerica, here's a question...
--> Does any one know which Mesoamerican culture first used agriculture? And, is agriculture considered a requirement for building monuments? Is it sufficient, or does it also require a beaurocracy or metal tools?

It should do. Mesoamerican culture was practically based around farming and priests making sure there were good conditions in which to farm.

The cultures who first used agriculture, however, is harder. The major cultures (Maya, Inca, Aztecs, Toltecs, etc) all used it and needed it, but early farming cultures date back much further. It also depends on where you are. The Andes is certainly not as farm-friendly as the swampy island of Tenochtitlan. I believe Moche cultures were particularly fond of farming in the early Andes, but I am sure it dates further back.

I know too little about Olmec culture (well, I suppose everyone does :p ) to know about their farming habits or even if they were agricultural (probably were). Without agriculture, these maginificent temple complexes, tombs, and universities (sort of) would not have existed.

[Jayhawk]

I am glad i'm not the only one who likes India.
:) I realise there's more than just the one tomb, but I've loved that bit of architecture for a long time. I even went as far to go there so I could touch it.
However, what I'd like most of all, is to be able to build it's mirror on the opposite shore as Sjajahan's (?) original plan seems to have been. :cool:

I also feel Mughal India would be the easiest for people to relate too, after all many of the generic images of India seem to focus strongly on the Mughal culture/age.

Is it still available and is it worth checking out?
I tried the demo, and wasn't impressed. I'm sure you should be able to find the demo somewhere?

[Hanna]

India would be nice, other asian cultures would also be interesting, as would meso-american ones. Nothing new to add, just wanted to say that I like the ideas people have so far.

[Wen Kha-Ne]

:) I realise there's more than just the one tomb, but I've loved that bit of architecture for a long time. I even went as far to go there so I could touch it.
However, what I'd like most of all, is to be able to build it's mirror on the opposite shore as Sjajahan's (?) original plan seems to have been. :cool:

I also feel Mughal India would be the easiest for people to relate too, after all many of the generic images of India seem to focus strongly on the Mughal culture/age.

I tried the demo, and wasn't impressed. I'm sure you should be able to find the demo somewhere?

One of the main reasons I bought RoN was for the art/architecture. It is quite stunning when you first play it and you have to like the Indian architecture in the expansion. Don't play it much otherwise. :p

The only real problems I can see with the Mughals are the period of time (you begin to get problems as you add the Dutch, English, French, and Portuguese traders), the religion (it would be hard to represent Islam in India without offending someone), and the enemies aspect. In a time when much of India was under control by one kingdom, you have more problems with that city-kingdom approach that I love so much.

I would most favour a period from about 400 BCE (Very roughly the timeset for Persia, Alexander, Chandragupta) to 1600 when some of the more famous monuments were constructed.

I have already imagined the splendr of the empire map. :D

[Erthadon]

I must admit to always wanting to see a good Celtic CB. Prolly v.unlikely, as the whole debate about them becoming Christian could spark off wars amoung people, and the fact that many don't consider them to have built cities in any way.

[Scott7]

I don't think a Medieval city builder would work. Too many cities had already been built (mainly by the Romans, who I think should be done next, but I'm going in a different direction here). However, this doesn't mean that we have to stick to ancient city builders.

I would love to see a British Empire city builder. Instead of the action taking place in Europe, the focus would be on colonization. Cities would be built in America, South Africa, Australia, etc.

It could also work with the Spanish Empire. I have a lot of other ideas about this, but I won't bore you with them.

P.S. If any one has heard of games similar to that, please tell me.

[Cironir]

I don't think a Medieval city builder would work. ... P.S. If any one has heard of games similar to that, please tell me.

"Medieval Lords" is a medieval city builder. Not out yet, though. From what I understand, it doesn't really have the scope of what Tilted Mill is working on, so it's probably just good enough to bridge over the time to the releaese of CotN. :)

[Scott7]

"Medieval Lords" is a medieval city builder. Not out yet, though. From what I understand, it doesn't really have the scope of what Tilted Mill is working on, so it's probably just good enough to bridge over the time to the releaese of CotN. :)

I actually meant if there were any British Empire colonization games, but I'll look into that one.

[Cironir]

I actually meant if there were any British Empire colonization games, but I'll look into that one.

Oh, I misunderstood, then -- that happened often last night, it seems. :o Medieval Lords won't be anywhere near as good as CotN, and I haven't seen anything that makes me think "Wow, that's innovative!", but I pre-ordered it anyway and should have it by Friday or Saturday (won't be out in English-speaking countries before October, though). I'll post some impressions when I get it. But like I said, I don't have any high hopes for something that's more than average.

[tobing]

I actually meant if there were any British Empire colonization games, but I'll look into that one.
That reminds me of Imperialism. I and II. Do you know that game? It's about building an empire, not really cities. You conquer parts of the country, just image something like feudal parts. If you all do it by military force you get some strong foes, so you'll not survive very long. The way to go is some mixture of military strength and economical power. Diplomacy is an important part of that game. Maybe you would like it, should be cheap now (if you can get it at all).

[Scott7]

I looked into Imperialism, and it looks quite interesting. The problem is actually finding a copy. I might buy one on Ebay or something, but the question of whether or not it would even be worth it to buy such an old game has come up in my mind.

Sorry to drift off-topic.

[NeilV]

it depends on your system first if you have XP it may not play apart from that if its cheep give it a go

[Traxia]

Imperialism 2 works on Windows 2000 Pro and is MUCH better than one so if you are going to aim for only one, get II.

[Joseph]

I have been a tremendous fan of the Patrician series, for several years now. They have a depth and complexity to them, with the trading and economic models, and are appealing in city building.
I know it is Mediterranean, but a Venice scenario would be intriguing. Multiple trading Houses, the Doge, the Council of Ten, and their interaction not only with European nations but the forging of trade with the Muslim world. A game beginning in the swampy islands, with trade aspects like Patrician, sea engagements, and colony founding with a buildup of the Most Serene Republic, the establishment of your own trading House, and the political angles as well would make for a very good game. The wars of Venice and Genoa over trade with the east ran intermittently over decades.
It does have the advantage that it has not been done either.

[Nidien]

Hi:

I too would like to see something more fantasy type like... Lords of magic. :o

Do any of you liked this game, I really loved the mounts of the elves/elfs ;)

[Enigmatic_Sphinx]

I may have missed a posting here, but I'm surprised to see that nobody has mentioned China as a subject. If anything ther might be too much empire/dynasty histroy and material for one game to take on...

[EmperorJay]

Perhaps that's because of Emperor, the newest CB game (altough already 2 years old almost).

[Azeem]

Hi:

I too would like to see something more fantasy type like... Lords of magic. :o

Do any of you liked this game, I really loved the mounts of the elves/elfs ;)

"Lords of Magic" is still one of my favorite turn-based fantasy games. I'm a frequent visitor of the "LoM" community myself. ;)

[Stavros Megalos]

Just a thought when suggesting cultures. Religion has always played a part in the citybuilding series. It is one thing to have games that involve ancient deities that are no longer actively worshipped and another when the religions involved continue to be major active world religions. This was a problem I had (have) with Emperor - Buddhism, Doaism, and Confucianism remain major religions/belief systems. Yet the game play seemed to trivialize these belief systems in a way that made me uncomfortable. Had the game continued further along the time line would we have seen Christian shrines built? Would acceptable homage have produced a Christian 'hero' - say the Virgin Mary who would walk the streets healing the sick?

Some of the suggestions for future games made in this thread have the potential to be a little sticky on this issue. Would people in India be offended by a game in which Lord Shiva wanders the streets? How would religion be handled in a game centered in any part of Christian Europe? I think it best to leave this game genre to the more ancient civs.

I have always liked the idea of a mesoamerican game, partly because the gods and their worship were somewhat different from the norm in Med civs. When offerings can range from flowers to the beating hearts of sacrificed captives, then we have some really interesting play possibilities. However, that said, like many on this forum I will happily buy and play just about anything offered me.

[Traxia]

Well the saints walked around for a while :)

I think the difference in Emperor was that the Ancestors were actually people that existed, not gods that were worshipped. I didn't feel funny about them walking around and I for one would love Saint Maurice (Mauritius) walking around kick enemy armies in the posterior.

Or Isadore making the crops grow...

[Bizkit]

Well you won't be seeing any gods walking the streets of your city in CotN.

And the designers can never please EVERYONE. All they can do is try to please as many as possible.

[Manni]

I think the ancient SILK-Road with it`s varieties would do a nice game.
Through deserts and over mountains a.s.o.
Establishing villages/cities/stores along it, attacks fom "who knows"......

[Nero Would]

I think the ancient SILK-Road with it`s varieties would do a nice game.
Through deserts and over mountains a.s.o.
Establishing villages/cities/stores along it, attacks fom "who knows"......
I think there was a trading game called Trade Empires a few years ago that was based on the Silk Road. I tried the demo, but didn't like it enough to buy it.

Of course that wasn't really a city-builder. In any case, I'm sure it would have been much better if TM had designed it.

[NeilV]

I think there was a trading game called Trade Empires a few years ago that was based on the Silk Road. I tried the demo, but didn't like it enough to buy it.

Of course that wasn't really a city-builder. In any case, I'm sure it would have been much better if TM had designed it.

I have it. It was just a trading game if an area got what it wanted it grew on its own the only buildings you get to place are for your traders and it got quite hard to over see when you had more than 5-6 triders running around. it was a nice game but needed more :rolleyes:

[Kenneth M. Hinds]

Actually this should include Mexico and Central America too. While the Aztecs might be a very interesting culture to model for many, I think that the Human Sacrifice aspects might cause a significant uproar with a great many others and make the game difficult to market. Doing the Aztecs wilthout including that facet of the culture would most likely not do well either.

So it might have to be Pre-Aztec Mexican cultures with the Aztecs as an invader, or limited to Mayans and Incas.

Ken

[Azeem]

Actually this should include Mexico and Central America too. While the Aztecs might be a very interesting culture to model for many, I think that the Human Sacrifice aspects might cause a significant uproar with a great many others and make the game difficult to market. Doing the Aztecs wilthout including that facet of the culture would most likely not do well either.

So it might have to be Pre-Aztec Mexican cultures with the Aztecs as an invader, or limited to Mayans and Incas.

Ken

Not necessarily. EA's "Black&White" had human sacrifice as well (though it did not show all the gory details) and there was no uproar.

[Pharaoh Pepy]

But in Black and White all that happens was a noise as the villagers was dropped on the place of sacrifice. The Aztecs ripped the hearts out of their sacrificial victims. Also the Aztecs believed that the sun would not rise if Huitzilopochtli and Tlaloc and other gods did not get sacrifices. A game where human sacrifice is an imperative is different from one where could happen like Black and White. It would give a fair number of people - me included - a stomach problem. The Maya might be better. They did practice human sacrifice - it was not, however, an imperative as it was for the Aztecs.

[Azeem]

They could simply make it abstract like the way it was done in "Black&White" just to bring across the point that they did perform human sacrifice. It doesn't have to be extremely detailed to the last drop of blood. ;)

Games do not have to represent history 100%. They should reflect it, but not attempt to be precise at every aspect. Besides, human sacrifice wasn't included in "Emperor" either even though the Bronze Age Chinese dynasties (the Shang in particular) practiced it on a massive scale as well. Also the more harsh practices of the Spartans was not a part of "Zeus" as well.

[Traxia]

I always felt quite ill when a sheep or goat was sacrificed in Zeus. (I'm a vegetarian for those who don't know)

I think it was made worse by the comments of the priest: 'Here little sheep, I'm not going to hurt you... much'

But I played and I survived (and I completed as my first ever CB game I'd completed :D)

I'd like to have the chance to pay back those priests by putting them on the alter... see how they like it...

[Azeem]

Just use the "Fireballs from Heaven" cheat and 'punish' the priests. ;)

[Traxia]

Yeah but that would ruin the city...

[Pharaoh Pepy]

Mortal Kombat pioneered heart ripping so Tilted Mill would not be going on unthreaded ground. Still human sacrifice was central to Aztec (a modern derivation from Aztlan, the mythical homeland of the Aztecs and not a term used by them), or more correctly the Mexica, ritual abstracting it would be a cop-out. However, decency would require it. Other games exist to gross out people.

[Azeem]

Virtua Fighter pioneered heart ripping

You mean "Mortal Kombat". The Virtua Fighter series had no blood.

[Pharaoh Pepy]

Oh yeah, Mortal Kombat.

[Bizkit]

Virtua Fighter! I think I last played it.. 4 years ago. It was on an old CD which, naturally, I lost. I never managed to beat the metal girl in the last level. That's probably why I unistalled it. :D

The game should cost around $4 at the moment.. That's it, tomorrow I'll be playing VF2! I'll be damned if I don't beat the metal girl. :p

[Ellerit]

I'd love to see Carthage, or Troy, but I suppose those are Mediterranean.

I think an Aztec-Incan-Mayan or some such game would be glorious, especially if some consideration was given to their unusual astronomic- and temporal-function buildings and layouts.

Russia would be intriguing.

[Mosses]

Atlantis is the most interesting of the them all. We have no preconceived ideas about Atlantis and creating cites and dealing with what history tells us of it could be cool. (Image what the creative minds at Titled Mill could come up with.) Darkage to the Middle Ages would also be cool. Leave out fantasy and science fiction. Aztec-Incan-Mayan race not only took the heart out of their captives, but it was concered a honour to compete for this by their people. Combat is an interesting challenge, but do we really want this in a city sim. I do not think Aztec-Incan-Mayan would be a could option, I could see alot of problems selling the game.

[Mosses]

Troy sounds really cool.

[Scott7]

I remember back before Poseidon, I wanted an Expansion Pack for Zeus to be one in which you'd contol Centaur cities. I still think that'd be pretty cool.

[EmperorJay]

Troy sounds really cool.

It does sound cool, but Troy is so small. There aren't many cities to build, there's only one famous war etc. When you take the whole of Greece, there are many famous cities, many famous wars etc. Troy would be nice if it would serve as a sub-civilization along with a main civilization though. (IMHO)

[Traxia]

Atlantis has been done

By TM in a kind of twisted way...

[Scott7]

By TM in a kind of twisted way...

The first time I saw the name Tilted Mill, I thought it said Twisted Mill. I wonder if that would be more fitting. ;)

Anyway, Atlantis wasn't done by TM. It was by Impressions, but I'm sure you knew that, so I'll be quiet.

[Tarquinius Superbus]

Some form of Byzantine-Arab-Ottoman CB would be good, as their architecture was each quite individual.

Also, some kind of Ancient Near Eastern CB, and Troy could be incorporated into it (it was a Hittite or at least an allied Hittite city).

[Merit]

Sumeria, Japan, the Celts, Slavic/Russian

[Keith]

The cultures suggested is always the same no matter how many times this question is asked. ;)

[parrotslave]

How about Polynesia and islands of the Pacific?

Limited resources, typhoons, headhunters...

Could be interesting.

[Azeem]

The cultures suggested is always the same no matter how many times this question is asked. ;)

That is because these cultures are rich in history and have a lot of untapped potential. :)

And you do somewhat the same thing as we do, mentioning your desires for a sort of "Caesar IV" every now and then. ;) I wouldn't be surprised if you suddenly decide to camp outside the Tilted Mill office with a placard that reads "We Want Caesar IV!". :p

[Traxia]

But they can't CALL it Caesar 4 because I reckon Sierra would own the name...

[RSchwind]

I saw someone voted for Norse a few pages back. That sounds good to me. I know they didn't have big cities but who wouldn't want to be a Viking?

[Traxia]

Cultures is all about the Norse

[Son of Moose]

At the risk of repeating an earlier suggestion, how about the Babylonians who were possibly second only to the Egyptians wrt building colossal monuments. Just think about the Hanging Gardens of Babylon and the other Ziggurats as well as the renowned walls for which Babylon was renowned.

In addition, they don't seem to have received the sort of gameplay exposure as the Romans and the Greeks. This imho is rather suprising. Perhaps this situation should be rectified ... :)

[Azeem]

At the risk of repeating an earlier suggestion, how about the Babylonians who were possibly second only to the Egyptians wrt building colossal monuments. Just think about the Hanging Gardens of Babylon and the other Ziggurats as well as the renowned walls for which Babylon was renowned.

In addition, they don't seem to have received the sort of gameplay exposure as the Romans and the Greeks. This imho is rather suprising. Perhaps this situation should be rectified ... :)

I think it's just more of the audience. It appears that the vast majority of CB players here are either from North America or Europe, thus many people don't seem to have much interest in other cultures other than the one's they're much more exposed to (such as Rome, Greece, Egypt). I'm somewhat the same way as I simply can't get myself interested in Rome. :o

Of course, we can always dream. ;)

[Miut]

What about the Norse? I have seen and tried the Settlers games but laying out a town was too unformed for me.

Or what about the Celts/Gauls in France? This could even be tied to the Asterix comics, with permission of course, that would be a hit with many people, I'm sure. You then have the quirky humor of the comics, Romans as the bad guys, and the fantasy element in the magic potion Getafix the Druid has to make to fight the Romans. ;)

Just my 2p worth...

http://www.sff.net/people/Lisanne/Viking/images/miut.gif

[Traxia]

No I meant Cultures as in the game Cultures.

Settlers always bugged me because I could only ever get through half the missions.

[Buzzsaw]

American Indian. Think of the possibilities and SCOPE of that one!

[Lickskillet]

I agree about the Mayan/Inca/Aztec civilizations...but I also think a Russian Czar age might be cool....and last but not least the Native American Indians would sorta be neat!

Lickskillet :eek:

[wodinoneeye]

Aztec/Mayan would have similar possibilities

[wodinoneeye]

I agree about the Mayan/Inca/Aztec civilizations...but I also think a Russian Czar age might be cool....and last but not least the Native American Indians would sorta be neat!

Lickskillet :eek:


Native American Indians -- not exactly a great target for a city builder
(with an empire level aspect)

But then maybe they will have flatter 'vignette' game with disjunct spectrum of indian nations and environs

[Son of Moose]

I wonder exactly how much building Stronghold 2 will have in it? The devs claim something like 140 (or was it 160) different types of buildings --- which would seem (on the face of it) fairly promising.

If the building element is not that substantial, it might be interesting to see what TM could do with a fairly generic European-based Medieval theme. Of course (if I really wanted to dream --- as the title of this thread gives me full license to do), it would be brilliant if TM and Firefly Studios were to combine their efforts to create a Medieval CB/RTS/Sim game. :D [This would be entirely in line with some of my earlier suggestions/requests].

If TM were to consider "going it alone" with a future Medieval-themed builder, it would be really great to be able to build far greater detail into ones castle than might be possible with Stronghold 2. Indeed, this principle could work for ANY FUTURE TM game insofar as this greater detail would permit yet greater player individualisation of ingame structures. Therefore far more creativity and far less repetition of exactly the same structures. :D

Just a thought ...

[tobing]

First I would like to remind you that Stronghold2 is in a very early stage for now (being published in 2006...). Then I think that this many buildings account for the different parts of your castle, so it's not really different buildings. Even Anno 1503 does not have this many different buildings! Apart from that I would like to see many variations of the same building type, because that makes everything lively. On the other hand you should recognize the type of a building at first sight, so e.g. distinguish a living place from a pottery or similar. We had discussed that issue before, iirc.

[Son of Moose]

(being published in 2006...).

Please forgive me if I am indeed subject to correction :o but I seem to remember reading that Stronghold 2 was due for release sometime in 2005. I definitely remember reading on one of the links provided that it was already about 50 per cent completed. :)

[tobing]

Sorry, I think I mixed up some things. Stronghold 2 is announced for spring 2005. See http://www.fireflyworlds.com/ for details.

[Itsatrap]

I think someone already mentioned a New-World colony type CB, but I think it'd be fun to try and do something in the Age of Sail era, possibly Napeoleonic or American Revolutionary War period.

Alternately, how about a Gold Rush era CB?

- Alan

[RSchwind]

I bought a New World game once called "America". You played either the Natives or the Settlers. Unfortunately it was such a horrible game I never even got half-way through it. I think it was more RTS than city-builder.

[deathcop]

I, for one, would be very interested in a city building game spanning the Russian Empire from its earliest days in Kiev through the wars against the Golden Horde, and right up to the era immediately preceeding the Revolution. A thousand years of history in an area we (mostly) have yet to realize was and is a tremendously influential country.

[claudio]

yea a game where you would have to build several citys on one map would be great ( build realy the wole russian empire)

[trypist]

What about the U.S of A? They are a new culture and very different from anything else - well they think so. They have no great history so, really, from their point of view you would be describing their culture for the first time. Just imagine going straight from Dodge City to modern America in only a little more than a hundred years.
Philip Tarbuck 11 Sep 04

[Scott7]

What about the U.S of A? They are a new culture and very different from anything else - well they think so. They have no great history so, really, from their point of view you would be describing their culture for the first time. Just imagine going straight from Dodge City to modern America in only a little more than a hundred years.
Philip Tarbuck 11 Sep 04

Hmm, I'm not sure how to take this, so I'll just say that I think an American citybuilder is quite theoretically possible and I'd like to see one, possibly as a (sub)section of my British Empire idea.

[Deaghaidh]

What about the very earliest cities in Mesopatamia? Or perhaps it wouldn't be differenet enough from CotN (mud bricks, polytheism, important rivers, hot climate).

I'd like to see a Maya/toltec/Aztec game or an ancient->Medieval India game. The latter could have elephants and monkeys!

A game focusing on the 'frontier' era of America (from the Old Northwest through the Klondike Gold Rush) could have real potential too.

[trypist]

Another country upon which the game could be based is Australia. That, like the U.S.A., has had a very short history and you could build the whole thing quite successfully, I would have thought. Likewise, New Zealand - another beautiful country. South Africa? I am not too sure about that - but maybe its too large a flight of imagination.
Philip Tarbuck 12 Sep 04

[Son of Moose]

I suppose that a traditional African village might be interesting. It would certainly be totally different to most of the other suggestions!! :)

There is a tourist facility named ShakaWorld (or maybe TshakaWorld) in KwaZulu Natal (in South Africa) that was the set for a mini-series outlining the life and times of (arguably) Southern Africa's greatest king. It is (as far as I know) a complete reconstruction of historic Ulundi.

Maybe this facility could somehow form the basis for a game? Perhaps (if some artistic licence is taken), the Great Zimbabwe could be added as a larger monument... :eek:

[mantidor]

I would suggest the maya, aztec and inca empires too. well Im biased since Im from southamerica :D, but there are a lot of interesting aspects about these cities, for example the aqueducts in the mayan empire, which are considered wonders by some, or building Machu pichu, that would be great! I read about how the incas had a fantastic economic system that was almost perfect, that would be worth checking out.

At first I thought that the human sacrifice aspect would actually make the game more appealing, since violence can make a game a sure hit (sad but true), but Ive already seen some comments against it, of course it can be abstract, but I personally wouldnt like that.

Im not sure about how the sacrifices were though. In most books or documentaries Ive seen its mentioned that the people to be sacrificed were chosen since birth, and they were prepared during their lifetime for the sacrifice, since it was considered a huge privilege to die for a god, but I once read that the sacrificed ones were war prisoners... maybe Im mixing cultures here? :confused:

[Jenisis]

The more CB games the better as far as I am concerned. I love the historical ones, and certainly India would be fantastic for its rich colors and visual pallette.

I am a huge sci-fi AND fantasy fan, so either of these is highly appealing. The oppurtunity to unleash the artists so to speak.

Celts, Atlantean, whatever, just keep the games coming please :D

[Spetsnaz101]

In this order:

1. Medieval Russia/Ukraine
2. Fantasy Realm (Thinks of Warcraft 3 except in CB mode, droooolls :D )
3. Persia
4. Aztecs
5. Norse, Koreans, or Japanese (Tie)

[Azeem]

Im not sure about how the sacrifices were though. In most books or documentaries Ive seen its mentioned that the people to be sacrificed were chosen since birth, and they were prepared during their lifetime for the sacrifice, since it was considered a huge privilege to die for a god, but I once read that the sacrificed ones were war prisoners... maybe Im mixing cultures here? :confused:

That is true for the Maya culture, but certainly not the Aztecs. The Inca did it too, but it was much more mild. Rather than cut out the sacrifice victim's still-beating heart, they would strangle the victim to death, or so I've heard.

[Deaghaidh]

You know what would be cool? Take the COTN concept for building colonies on Mars in the future. Each level could be a big 'dome' with an athmosphere and such, and you have a finite amount of colonists arriving from Earth (like villagers in CotN). Instead of building tombs you build terraforming projects and do research to gain prestige.

Something along Kim Stanley Robinson's REd Mars trilogy (i.e, no aliens :D)

[Scott7]

Another country upon which the game could be based is Australia. That, like the U.S.A., has had a very short history and you could build the whole thing quite successfully, I would have thought. Likewise, New Zealand - another beautiful country. South Africa? I am not too sure about that - but maybe its too large a flight of imagination.
Philip Tarbuck 12 Sep 04

Yes, I like those ideas a lot. My idea a bunch of pages back was for a British Empire city builder, in which you'd build cities in America, Australia, South Africa, etc. all in the same game.

[Tarquinius Superbus]

Australia = Worst country ever...
---
Parcere Subiectus et Debellare Superbos

[arcan]

I would choose Mesopotamia (time of nabucchodonosor) and central/south american cultures befoe spanish arrival (maya, aztec, nazca...)

[Robber Baron]

Let's see...I think we've done Rome to death. Let's move on.

A real Medieval European CB would top my list.

Central and South America, pre-Spain for sure!

Frontier America hasn't been touched as far as I know.

Ancient Mesopotamia/Persia would be interesting.

[Keith]

You can never have enough of Rome!

I think medieval europe has been well covered lately, although not by a citybuilder. It wouldn't be my first pick, nor second or third for that matter.

Pioneer or even colonial America I'm not sure there's enough interest there, and it seems too recent. Not enough "aura" about the time period to be intriguing.

Mesopotamia/Persia would be interesting, even the Ottoman Turks.

MesoAmerica has the right combination of things such as culture, civilizaiton, cities and it has been a constant suggestion. Not my favorite, but I'd take it over medieval europe any day.

[Janmeryet]

Australia = Worst country ever...

I'm assuming you mean in terms of city building games...

Just an idea, but with this thread getting so incredibly long, would someone who knows how to set up a poll do so, using the ideas that have been mooted in this thread? That would make it easier to see interest levels in different potential future games.

This list has most of what's been mentioned ( I hope) in no particular order -if I've missed somebody's pet idea, let me know and I'll add it:

India (Moghul)
Arabia/Middle East/Islamic
Byzantine
Ottoman
Turkish
Hittite
Sumeria
Babylon
Persia
Mesopotamia
Moorish
Assyria
Nubia
Mongolia
Polynesia
Silk Road
Mexico
South America (Pre-Columbian, Aztec, Inca, Mayan, Toltec, Olmec, Nazca...)
Meso-America
North America (Frontier, Gold Rush, Indian, New World)
Africa (Mali, Zulu)
Med. Europe
Gauls
Celts
Japan
Korea
Khmer
Norway (Viking)
Russia/Ukraine (Czar)
Italy (Renaissance)
British Empire
England (Victorian, Norman)
Australia
New Zealand
Spanish Empire
Rome
Troy
Carthage
Atlantis
Mars
Fantasy
Sci-Fi

[Tarquinius Superbus]

I'm assuming you mean in terms of city building games...


Well, Australian history as a whole is incredibly boring, so a CB of it would be horrible.
---
Parcere Subiectus et Debellare Superbos

[Azeem]

The Mongols and the Ottomans would be good only for a "Total War" type of game. They were conquerors, not builders.

What exactly are you going to build in a "Mongol" City-builder? Yurts? :p Mongol villages were also mobile (they could just pack up the Yurts and move on if necessary), so they weren't always in one place, though there were some cities built by Central Asian peoples (such as Kazan).

The Ottomans took control over cities that already existed. The Hagia Sophia was already in Constantinople before the Ottomans arrived. They built a few mosques (one of them was so well-built that it survived for hundreds of years despite's Turkey's many notorious earthquakes) and palaces, but generally, they were more administrators than city-builders.

Personally, my vote goes for India, Persia, or Mesoamerica. ;)

[Keith]

The Mongols and the Ottomans would be good only for a "Total War" type of game. They were conquerors, not builders.


While many of the cities in the middle east extend back into time before the rise of the Ottomans, "Cairo, Damascus and Aleppo grew by almost fifty percent in land size and the population roughly doubled during the Ottoman period.

The Ottoman urban designers divided urban space into two parts: public and private. The public part of the city was where commerce took place in the center of the city and had large streets running from the center to the city limits. Residential areas were more irregular in their road layout and are characteristic of the "Arab" town style. This design focuses trade and commerce into a relatively confined location and although it appears in towns from medieval periods, the Ottomans formalized the city center into a bedestan or center for international trade. There is also a correlation between the size of the Great Mosque of the town with the size of the bedestan which leads one to believe that economic practices did not change all that much from earlier times.


Town activities radiated outward from the mosques and bedestans in roughly concentric rings, although this arrangement was also affected by historical and geographical factors including terrain and rivers. This radiating pattern is very similar to those found in modern cities including New York City where the city was built up around Manhattan island with the lower portion of the island as its focus. Today, lower Manhattan is still the focus of trade and commerce because of New York's World Financial Center and Wall Street. It is apparent that the Ottoman cities were designed to stimulate trade, much as modern city planners try to accomplish.

Another aspect of the Ottoman period was the partitioning of large cities, generally along religious lines. This was a relatively easy way of administrating in a diverse city with different outlooks and populations and it was strengthened by the millet system whereby religious groups would maintain semi-autonomy. Traditional Arab housing is generally supposed to fulfill the social aspirations of Muslims and their religious creed. Many of the wealthier homes are built around a central courtyard which gives an air of seclusion, once again emphasizing the separation of the family life from the public life. It remains unclear what the middle and lower class habitats were like as they had not been unearthed in the same numbers as residences of the elite. It is possible that some of the "atypical" house designs may have been the preferred styles of the lower and middle classes in the Ottoman towns. It is possible that many middle class homes shared a courtyard with a neighboring house or did not have a central courtyard in order to maximize land usage. The house was usually several stories tall and was subdivided into three to five family units."

http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/middle_east_politics/918 (http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/middle_east_politics/918)

More info at:

http://www.fact-index.com/o/ot/ottoman_empire.html

[imhotep3147]

North America (Frontier, Gold Rush, Indian, New World)



:eek: Now these are original and would definantly be interesting. Thumbs up to whomever originally came up with them. ( I didn't feel like scanning all these posts to find it... :D sorry)

[lhammondwhite]

How about the Toltec civilization? Very few people know much about them but the Aztec built upon their accomplishments. I also like the idea of a fantasy sim.

[Imperius Leader]

The Toltecs and Aztec civilization would be cool. Did not the Toltec capital Tenochtihuacan have a population of 250,000 people at its hieght? :eek: While the some cities in the old world couldn't even reach half that. Plus their cities were a lot cleaner.

[claudio]

at the end i neefd not new civilisations ( the main structures are the same )but i need new game ideas ( new structures)

[Son of Moose]

Claudio:

In many respects, I think that you have most definitely "hit the nail on the head". :) While new cultures would (at the onset) no doubt be extremely interesting to play, they would almost inevitably become extremely monotonous (and indeed boring) to play if they retained the same gameplay options as their predecessors.

CotN certainly seems to offer a totally new gameplay option to the earlier classic CB games. :) I would also certainly love to see many new buildings --- something that might be possible if community-based add-ons could be incorporated into the game. (This topic has already been discussed elsewhere in the forums --- possibly in the thread entitled: "How much detail would you like to see in CotN"). :)

[gem1n100]

I would like a citybuilder which takes place in the Americas (North and/or South) before the "discovery" by the old world. :rolleyes:


I agree! I think it would be really cool to build up the american country, see if we could do better than what we already screwed up!

[claudio]

yea a game about the colonisation of northern amerika were you have to make your people happy and dial with the indians

[CaptainDingo]

You mean the Native Americans. ;)

[claudio]

no i heared that it is now that they wont be eighter called indian then native americans, they want to be called each by their own trieb name

us history:) first time in my life

[Son of Moose]

I think that there is a more universal recognition of ethnicity in the world today --- insofar as small minority groups are extremely proud of their cultures. They wish to embrace their traditions and wish to be called by their ethnic names. :)

[Imperius Leader]

I only hope the islamist extremists don't get in charge of Egypt. From what I hear they want to blow up all the monuments, the same way the taleban blew up those huge buda statues, cos they say they are an affront to god :mad:

[Son of Moose]

Now THAT would be a complete disaster. I really do not get their viewpoint in this particular issue --- people should take pride in their heritage. :) The ancient Egyptian monuments (most of which will hopefully be featured in CotN) are indeed some of the most magnificent in the world!! :)

[tobing]

I think growing feeling for ethnic and cultural identity comes as an opposition to globalism everywhere else. People feel lost and abandoned by employers only urging for high profit and low cost, and a government which can't really (or does not want to) steer against this neo-capitalism world we're in.

In some sense this is a good thing going on, because it enhances diversity. I remember reading some time ago that in indonesia people started to throw their furniture (made by reed and similar) to buy new things from IKEA. So you would go to indonesia to see some local culture, and you get - the same like at home. No good.

The downside is that this tendency is so close to extremism and fundamentalism. Extreme people tend to get hold of these feelings of people and use that for their own purposes. Which could lead to a disaster when it comes to islamism and sorts.

[Son of Moose]

Tobing:

The downside is that this tendency is so close to extremism and fundamentalism. Extreme people tend to get hold of these feelings of people and use that for their own purposes. Which could lead to a disaster when it comes to islamism and sorts.

Too true ... :( Nationalism and extremism often do (regrettably) co-incide. :(

[Typhon]

The only non-mediterranean culture I would like to see explored is Russia.

Apart from that, I am still hoping for another Greek CB game, like Zeus and Poseidon.

[Son of Moose]

I have just visited the Stonghold Heaven Discussion Forum webpage dedicated to Stronghold 2 and read through the multipage (12) thread entitled "Now what would you like for Stronghold II". The link is provided below (go back 100 days rather than the 10 day default listing):

http://stronghold.heavengames.com/cgi-bin/forum/display.cgi?action=ct&f=18,790,,100

I have fairly carefully read through a large section of this extremely long and highly detailed thread (where our Angel Jayhawk acts as both the initiator and the moderator). Some of the requests are indeed interesting and (if ever implemented --- they probably will not appear in Stronghold 2!!) could make for a truly dynamic and fascinating CB-RTS game. It would be really awesome to be able to build an extremely detailed and highly customisable castle (please read through the plethora of comments requesting various relevant features --- from a portcullis to a torture dungeon). :eek:

For the hard-core CB brigade (who do not really like excessive military activity), it should even be possible to concentrate on the building rather than the military aspects of this game. :)

I would be extremely interested to hear if there are any comments about this seemingly highly interesting possibility. :)

[Bugsy]

Very interesting indeed, Moose!! I recently purchased the original Stronghold, and Tropico, in a dual jewel. I only played it for an hour, as I have other things to work on at the moment, like finishing Sacred, but, I got really frustrated with some military aspects, like the raiders in I think the third area. I did like that I found a sandbox mode in Stronghold, so I can just build the medieval city of my dreams, so to speak.

I for one, would ADORE a game like CotN, in a medieval fashion. Pre-Renn is my favorite time period besides Ancient Egypt and Greece. I have done live historical re-enactment of the time period with a group in Virginia, USA as well.

The only problem I forsee, is without concentrating on military and wars, what monuments would we build? I think something along the lines of the rock garden type things from Poseidon would be great, personally, but on a larger scale, like, stonehenge. The statues on Easter Island, would be another. It would have to be stone monuments, and simplistic ones at that. Tapestries would be another cool aspect. Creating the most well known ones, and having in the help files or as a side aspect to the game, making and collecting X number of them.

What do you think they could do in place of the massive monument building we know we'll get with CotN, with it's pyramids and all?

[Son of Moose]

Bugsy:

Many thanks for your reply!! :D

Yes --- I have thought a bit about monuments. Offhand, I can think of a couple:

# Notre Dame or some other really big Medieval Cathedral (Westminster, Yorkminster, Rheims, Chatres, etc).

# Perhaps some form of medieval university complex. I might be subject to correction, but Oxford and some of the Germanic universities can trace their roots back to the late medieval period.

# Maybe some of our fellow forum members could add their ideas here!! :)

Of course, the CASTLE itself would be one's ongoing monument. Perhaps, as one reaches a newer level of progress or wealth, new items could become available to yet further enhance this mega-structure. :)

[buckylarue]

...is the Dutch culture. I think it would be a truly fascinating and challenging game, with a great scope. Building on below sea-level lands, developing well-protected towns to repel invaders, creating outposts in Indonesia and Africa, becoming the art and commerce center of the world; all over the span of several hundred years.

(Besides, with that windmill in the logo, it's a natural fit!) :)

[Bugsy]

I didn't even think of the huge Churches, Moose, thanks!

That would be nice. Enhancing the palace would be nice too, and yes, MUST have a dungeon and torture chamber, preferably with Mistresses like Dungeon Keeper 2 had. <eg> How I ADORE That game!! It's good to be bad. :D

[Son of Moose]

Bugsy:

It would certainly be great to be able to effectively play "good cop - bad cop" in a game whereby one could use equal doses of the carrot and the stick.

(Btw: I have a feeling that the "pesky" egyptians might just need a fair amount of the stick!! :p )

[Innovan]

Bugsy:
# Notre Dame or some other really big Medieval Cathedral (Westminster, Yorkminster, Rheims, Chatres, etc).


Definately Cathedrals are the big monuments of the medieval period. But building the stones are only half the equation. You also take decades after construction to add murals and mosaics, each of which is specialized for different specific areas of a church because of structural requirements --ie some places can only take a mosaic, and others can only take a mural, and trying to place the wrong one in the wrong place means it falls off rather quickly and is destroyed.

Keythedral is a highly desired (and highly reviewed) game this year. Each player uses their villagers contribute to a Cathedral.
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/game/4099
There's also the older Krieg und Frieden, but it doesn't seem as successful of a game.
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/game/48

[Innovan]

Bugsy:
# Notre Dame or some other really big Medieval Cathedral (Westminster, Yorkminster, Rheims, Chatres, etc).


Definately Cathedrals are the big monuments of the medieval period. But building the stones are only half the equation. You also take decades after construction to add murals and mosaics, each of which is specialized for different specific areas of a church because of structural requirements --ie some places can only take a mosaic, and others can only take a mural, and trying to place the wrong one in the wrong place means it falls off rather quickly and is destroyed.

But if you succeed... Hagia Sofia converted people on sight, it was so magnificent in its day.

Keythedral is a highly desired (and highly reviewed) game this year. Each player contributes to building a Cathedral by using their villagers.
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/game/4099
There's also the older Krieg und Frieden, but it doesn't seem as successful of a game.
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/game/48

[Innovan]

One I have yet to see mentioned is the Dutch culture.

There have actually been multiple successful games covering the Dutch this year.

Very popular has been Goa. It's about establishing spice colonies.
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/game/9216
Revolution: The Dutch Revolt 1568-1648 will probably sell out at Essen this weekend and immediately shoot into collector status. Francis Tresham, who made the boardgame behind Sid Meir's Civilization, has been working on this game for 15 years.
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/game/9215
Struggle of Empires also has generated a lot of advance buzz from playtesters and is being released at last.
http://boardgamegeek.com/game/9625

[Son of Moose]

Innovan:

I certainly understand your point about adorning the great cathedrals. :) Maybe this might present a really interesting gameplay opportunity whereby one can either somehow individualise the "decorations" or one could undertake several (presumably fairly costly and extensive) upgrades throughout the game (i.e. like moving up to the next level). :D

[NeilV]

it could be a diffrent slant as most of them to 50-60 years to build that a good time frame for a game

[Son of Moose]

NeilV:

Yes --- the timeframe might be slightly different which (as you say) could create a somewhat different game. However, I seem to remember reading somewhere that a lot of the great cathedrals took many 100's of years to complete. :( There were only so many skilled stonemasons to create all those wonderful gargoyles, etc. :)

I must admit that I really like this idea of a Medieval game --- such as Stronghold with more building. :)

[Innovan]

And agriculture. A real manorial economic model including serf labor. Start around 700 with the fall of the Roman Empire, cover the change from a two field to three field system that caused the European economic boom of this period (along with increasingly better plows, better seed stock, and the use of horses instead of oxen), and go on to 1200 with the acquisition of the Crusader States (http://www.teach12.com/ttc/assets/coursedescriptions/390.asp), including the very different dry farming methods of the Levant area and the struggle as Western Europeans adapted their ruling systems to accomodate it. In particular the acquisition of very profitable arab sugar plantations started the spread of the entire plantation system of farming throughout the world.

It'll never happen though. :D

[Son of Moose]

Innovan:

It'll never happen though.

Yes --- you are most probably right. :)

However, I really think that an in-depth Medieval CB-RTS game (possibly featuring a more realistic agricultural model as you suggest) could be extremely successful. :) It is just a question of maintaining an optimal balance between the city building aspect (which should be as realistic as possible) with the RTS element (which could imho be slightly less realistic). Other EB (Empire Building) and puzzle-solving elements could well be added to this mix in order to increase its depth. ;)

[Drake123]

I like that idea one guy made of a fantasy citybuilding sim, for example maybe LOTR where you can be elves/dwarves and other races( i would preferablly like the elves cuz the mountins and rivers), I also think that would appeal to the public and maybe get more people into citybuilding games.

[Son of Moose]

Drake123:

I also think that would appeal to the public and maybe get more people into citybuilding games.

Yes --- I think that any reasonable idea (and yours is definitely reasonable :) ) that would increase the profile (and thereby the popularity) of the CB genre should be supported. :D

[wodinoneeye]

There have actually been multiple successful games covering the Dutch this year.

Very popular has been Goa. It's about establishing spice colonies.
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/game/9216



Interesting on that site how game accessories and helper aid can be distributed thru the web and printed out for use with the board game.

[wodinoneeye]

Drake123:



Yes --- I think that any reasonable idea (and yours is definitely reasonable :) ) that would increase the profile (and thereby the popularity) of the CB genre should be supported. :D



We could have all Egyptian God characters walking the streets in CotN ...

[Son of Moose]

Wodinoneye:

We could have all Egyptian God characters walking the streets in CotN ...

As in Zeus? :)

[wodinoneeye]

The Toltecs and Aztec civilization would be cool. Did not the Toltec capital Tenochtihuacan have a population of 250,000 people at its hieght? :eek: While the some cities in the old world couldn't even reach half that. Plus their cities were a lot cleaner.


125000

Interesting documentary I saw recently said that their influence was based
on a monopoly and trade network based on obsidian products.


Imperial Rome had somewhere between 1 and 3 million (some estimates as high as 5 -- based on filling the 5-7 story tenemant block buildings that covered alot of the city)

[Son of Moose]

Wodinoneye:

Imperial Rome had somewhere between 1 and 3 million (some estimates as high as 5 -- based on filling the 5-7 story tenemant block buildings that covered alot of the city)

Wow ... I must admit that I never realised that Ancient Rome was THAT heavily populated. :eek: Hopefully, a future TM-made Roman CB game would enable one to (re)create a city of this magnitude!! ;) Now THAT would be a challenge ... :cool:

[Keith]

Rome itself had a population of approximately 1 million. It was the largest city in the history world until 19th Century London finally reached 1 million.

[Son of Moose]

Keith:

Many thanks for that extremely interesting fact!! :)

I am sure that you would love to have a chance at recreating a good part of it with a future TM game named "Children of the Tiber" (or whatever). :D

[Emperor Ramirez]

Actually, even though it is true that Rome reached a population of 1 million at its height, it is also true that the Toltec capital had the largest population in the world at its contemporary time. Rome collpased my friend, and so did its population. By the 13th and 14th centuries most cities in Europe had less than 40,000 people, and the largest city in Europe at the time was Cordoba in Granada with just over 100,000. So you see, the Toltec capital with its 125,000 did have the largest population in the world during its time(the Western World that is, I am not sure about the East).

[wodinoneeye]

Actually, even though it is true that Rome reached a population of 1 million at its height, it is also true that the Toltec capital had the largest population in the world at its contemporary time. Rome collpased my friend, and so did its population. By the 13th and 14th centuries most cities in Europe had less than 40,000 people, and the largest city in Europe at the time was Cordoba in Granada with just over 100,000. So you see, the Toltec capital with its 125,000 did have the largest population in the world during its time(the Western World that is, I am not sure about the East).


I will have to see if I can find a statistic for Constantinople for that period.
The Eastern Empire lasted for almost another thousand years longer than Rome.

Actually some of the historians have moved their estimates upwards for Romes population. The way that landlords packed people into their tenement blocks and evidence of the large number of them in Rome...

[Son of Moose]

Wodinoneye:

The way that landlords packed people into their tenement blocks and evidence of the large number of them in Rome...

Some things (most regretably) never change ... :(

Yes --- Constantinople was certainly an extremely important (and presumably large) city after the fall of Rome (c 400AD). :)

[Keith]

Yes, Constantinople would have had a huge population and probably one of the largest in the world after the fall of Rome. This was probably even more true during the reign of the Ottoman Turks.

I just found one reference (http://reference.allrefer.com/encyclopedia/C/Constnti.html) to the 10th century population of Constantinople where they put it at approximately 1 million.

Another (http://scholar.chem.nyu.edu/tekpages/urbanpop.html) puts the population of Constantinople around 1000AD at somewhere between 50,000 and 125,000. According to the data there Granada and Cordoba only reached 23,000-49,000 some 350 years later and remained at that level for about another 130 years.

[Son of Moose]

Keith:

I just found one reference to the 10th century population of Constantinople where they put it at approximately 1 million.

This is actually extremely interesting --- I cannot help wondering how the civil engineering skills of the day (especially sanitation) were able to sustain such a huge (and presumably densely packed) population. :confused:

Their civilization was then certainly not as backward (compared to ours of today) as one would have imagined. :)

[Keith]

When the city the center of a vast ruling empire it's easy to see how they can reach such large population levels. If you weren't in Rome you were nowhere, so to say. The same for Constinople once Rome fell.

The Roman insulae were usually three levels, maybe four. The problem is that they were prone to fires and the upper floors of the insulaes also had a distressing tendency to collapse.

When you consider the model of Rome at the Constantine in the Museo della Civilta Romana (Museum of Roman culture) you can see how such a huge population was possible.

http://www.photo.net/photo/pcd0795/ancient-rome-model-2.3.jpg

[Son of Moose]

Keith:

Thank you so much for the extremely interesting picture. :D I must admit that I am fascinated by this type of historical recreation. :)

Therefore there is indeed an historical precident for the burning and collapsing buildings in the classic CB games. :) [I suppose that the episode of Nero perportedly fiddling while Rome burned was but one of many conflagrations. There are rumours that he actually started it (like Hitler and the old Reichstag 2000 odd years later)].

[Keith]

Keith:

Thank you so much for the extremely interesting picture. :D I must admit that I am fascinated by this type of historical recreation. :)

Therefore there is indeed an historical precident for the burning and collapsing buildings in the classic CB games. :) [I suppose that the episode of Nero perportedly fiddling while Rome burned was but one of many conflagrations. There are rumours that he actually started it (like Hitler and the old Reichstag 2000 odd years later)].
That's the popular story about Nero. There are other theories out there on how that fire in Rome started. There's even a theory that suggests that the Christians did start or contribute to the spread of the fire.

Secrets of the Dead . The Great Fire of Rome | PBS (http://www.pbs.org/search/redir/http://www.pbs.org/wnet/secrets/case_rome/)

[Son of Moose]

Keith:

Thanks for yet another interesting link. :D You have indeed managed to "educate" us with these fascinating historical "titbits". :D

[Emperor Ramirez]

Well, I must say that coming up with an original idea strikes me as difficult. But if I had to choose the theme for a new CB, I would choose space as the setting and humans and alliens as the characters. I love history, but the future excites just as much. There is something about the stars that draws my imagination ( Yes, I like both the Star Trek and Star Wars series, the original ones :D ). Building a city in outer space would be really cool and fascinating! Imagine a new breed of buildings, basic needs that demand fulfilment, technologies beyond our creativity, and alliens :eek: It would be so interesting to be able to write history, not to merely relive it. Ok, I am exaggerating but you get my point!!

[Innovan]

The Caesar3 dev team, trying to come up with a theme that would leave them bored every day, fooled around with "Caesar in Space" and invented the whole walker mechanism they would use for their next 5 titles.

Part of that team eventually ended up at Firefly, where they made the City Builder "Space Colony", a recent release. http://www.fireflyworlds.com/sc_index.php

[wodinoneeye]

Well, I must say that coming up with an original idea strikes me as difficult. But if I had to choose the theme for a new CB, I would choose space as the setting and humans and alliens as the characters. I love history, but the future excites just as much. There is something about the stars that draws my imagination ( Yes, I like both the Star Trek and Star Wars series, the original ones :D ). Building a city in outer space would be really cool and fascinating! Imagine a new breed of buildings, basic needs that demand fulfilment, technologies beyond our creativity, and alliens :eek: It would be so interesting to be able to write history, not to merely relive it. Ok, I am exaggerating but you get my point!!


A Sci-fi theme could open up even more use for neat particle effects
(which cant be as impressive in a historical themed game) which is a selling
point for games (yes I know 'glitz' doesnt make a good game...)

Space station development CB game???
Abstract game of sending out missions to mine/trade etc...
Same style of placing 'modules' by the player to facilitate development etc...

Other similar games exists ?? Except now with 3D (ala CotN) - close ups so you can actually see interesting aliens etc...

[Emperor Ramirez]

Common friends, if you think about it there are many games for almost every single thinkable theme or idea, but that does not mean there are many good games. On the contrary, it means there is a lot of trash, and some few great games. My idea alone has no value unless it is used properly. TC Mills, imho, has the capabilities of turning this vague idea into an exciting and cool game!

[wodinoneeye]

Yes, Constantinople would have had a huge population and probably one of the largest in the world after the fall of Rome. This was probably even more true during the reign of the Ottoman Turks.

I just found one reference (http://reference.allrefer.com/encyclopedia/C/Constnti.html) to the 10th century population of Constantinople where they put it at approximately 1 million.

Another (http://scholar.chem.nyu.edu/tekpages/urbanpop.html) puts the population of Constantinople around 1000AD at somewhere between 50,000 and 125,000. According to the data there Granada and Cordoba only reached 23,000-49,000 some 350 years later and remained at that level for about another 130 years.


I did read somewhere recently that the Byzantine empire had shrunk considerably towards the end (Constantinople fell to the Turks 1453) as they lost terrirtory to their enemies. The capitols population had fallen drasticly
during the decline.

[wodinoneeye]

Keith:



This is actually extremely interesting --- I cannot help wondering how the civil engineering skills of the day (especially sanitation) were able to sustain such a huge (and presumably densely packed) population. :confused:

Their civilization was then certainly not as backward (compared to ours of today) as one would have imagined. :)


They did things on an industrial and comercial scale that werent matched til the 18th century. Ordinary (consumer item) furniture was imported from Gaul. Grain from Egypt came in on 1000 ton ships. A copper mining operation in Spain had 50000 slaves working at it and the slag heaps matched those seen at modern mining complexes. Consumer grade ironware (like cooking grills) were imported from India. Rome had trading 'factories' (trade posts) down the edges of Africa.

Roman sanitation?? Aquaducts, Public Baths, Underground Sewer system etc...
Engineering corps run by the civil service using standard planes for roads, aquaducts, city plans etc... Empire business paper work done in triplicate
and filed in 3 different places -- tons of paper constantly sent via Imperial Post.

The more I learn about Rome the more it looks as complicated as the current world.

[wodinoneeye]

When the city the center of a vast ruling empire it's easy to see how they can reach such large population levels. If you weren't in Rome you were nowhere, so to say. The same for Constinople once Rome fell.

The Roman insulae were usually three levels, maybe four. The problem is that they were prone to fires and the upper floors of the insulaes also had a distressing tendency to collapse.

When you consider the model of Rome at the Constantine in the Museo della Civilta Romana (Museum of Roman culture) you can see how such a huge population was possible.

http://www.photo.net/photo/pcd0795/ancient-rome-model-2.3.jpg


And in the picture, Trans-Tiber area (lower right) isnt even shown.

[wodinoneeye]

When the city the center of a vast ruling empire it's easy to see how they can reach such large population levels. If you weren't in Rome you were nowhere, so to say. The same for Constinople once Rome fell.

The Roman insulae were usually three levels, maybe four. The problem is that they were prone to fires and the upper floors of the insulaes also had a distressing tendency to collapse.



I forget what emperor it was who limited the insulae to 5 stories.
They were built higher than that and the fires were just too hard to fight (and like you said, they collapsed alot more when the contractors skimped
on building material quality/quantity).

The better ones had water reservoirs on the roofs to help fight fires and serve as building water supply and hose fitting for fire hoses (plus pumps to keep that reservoirs filled).

[Son of Moose]

Wodinoneye:

They did things on an industrial and comercial scale that werent matched til the 18th century. Ordinary (consumer item) furniture was imported from Gaul. Grain from Egypt came in on 1000 ton ships. A copper mining operation in Spain had 50000 slaves working at it and the slag heaps matched those seen at modern mining complexes. Consumer grade ironware (like cooking grills) were imported from India. Rome had trading 'factories' (trade posts) down the edges of Africa.

This and the rest of your highly informative post shows just how catastrophic the fall of the Roman Empire was. :( The fact that it took virtually 1000 years for civilization to return to these standards is just mind-boggling.

[Enigmatic_Sphinx]

I forget what emperor it was who limited the insulae to 5 stories...
(
Augustus was the first to impose limits, 5 stories or ~70 feet. And Nero (talk about closing the barn door after the animals are gone) imposed fire regulations after the big fire!

[wodinoneeye]

Wodinoneye:



This and the rest of your highly informative post shows just how catastrophic the fall of the Roman Empire was. :( The fact that it took virtually 1000 years for civilization to return to these standards is just mind-boggling.


As I read recently, what had been the Roman Empire became Medieval Europe. The 'Dark Ages' is a generalization that is more incorrect than correct. Charlemagne in 800AD etc....

Im looking at a book about Medieval Machines (the chapter on mechanical clocks today) which puts forward the idea that a mechanical revolution took place in Europe between the time of Charlemagne 800s and the time around when Constantinople fell 1400s (and the Renaissance was starting).



But yes, the industrial scale which the Romans undertook things was a high achievement.
Recently I heard a story about a site in France which the French army after WW2 attributed to the Germans, turned out to be Roman. A whole hillside 1/2 mile wide had been an industrial system of cascading waterwheels (a river diverted and several aquaducts feeding it) -- the foundations remaining made of concrete. Remember this was in Gaul (not at the center in Rome).

[wodinoneeye]

Augustus was the first to impose limits, 5 stories or ~70 feet. And Nero (talk about closing the barn door after the animals are gone) imposed fire regulations after the big fire!


Arson was counted amonst the worst crimes in the Roman mind and legal system.

[Son of Moose]

Wodinoneye:

Recently I heard a story about a site in France which the French army after WW2 attributed to the Germans, turned out to be Roman. A whole hillside 1/2 mile wide had been an industrial system of cascading waterwheels (a river diverted and several aquaducts feeding it) -- the foundations remaining made of concrete. Remember this was in Gaul (not at the center in Rome).

Wow --- this is certainly a most impressive achievement --- especially as it is in one of the "provinces". No doubt (if archaeologists looked in the right places) they would possibly be able to unearth similar signs of engineering prowess throught Europe and North Africa. :) Maybe these structures could somehow be integrated into a Roman CB game. ;)

[Keith]

And in the picture, Trans-Tiber area (lower right) isnt even shown.
For those in the beta test imagine building ROME using the CotN game engine appropriatedly modified. Now that would be a challenge!

For those not in the beta test, you'll just have imagine what it is I am talking about for now. Sorry.

[wodinoneeye]

For those in the beta test imagine building ROME using the CotN game engine appropriatedly modified. Now that would be a challenge!

For those not in the beta test, you'll just have imagine what it is I am talking about for now. Sorry.


Sound like a hint of very large city maps(easy these days) or self extending maps (harder to implement- less likely).

Hell we have lotsa memory these days and as I explained earlier, the simulation doesnt eat up that much CPU compared to the view rendering...

[Son of Moose]

Wodinoneye:

Sound like a hint of very large city maps(easy these days) or self extending maps (harder to implement- less likely).

This sounds most pleasing!! :D :D

Btw: What exactly are self-extending maps? This sounds like an interesting concept. :confused:

[tobing]

...Btw: What exactly are self-extending maps? This sounds like an interesting concept. :confused:
I have never seen any self-extending maps, but I have been thinking about such a thing ( ;) ) - I would say it is a kind of random map, which is generated as needed when you discover new parts of the map previously hidden under some fog of war.

[Son of Moose]

Tobing:

Somewhat like having a couple of "sub(sidiary)-maps" within the main game map? Would this add extra variation to a game? :confused:

[tobing]

Tobing:

Somewhat like having a couple of "sub(sidiary)-maps" within the main game map? Would this add extra variation to a game? :confused:
No, not sub-maps or anything. Imagine you start off in any area, with limited visible part of the map, like in most RTS games. Except some area around your starting position everything is hidden in the dark. Now, you build and within some range of your buildings, and later within some range of certain units you discover the land hidden under the dark. Now what I mean is that the hidden parts of the map need not necessarily be generated yet, only when they become visible they have to be generated. So the map would essentially consist of the visible parts of the map, and only those areas (tiles) would be stored, in memory as well as on disk. As discovery continues more and more tiles of the map would be generated (always randomly), so the map grows always bigger, the only limit given by the main memory, some coordinate maths involving negative coordinates and some dynamic tricky data structure holding the map's data.

[Son of Moose]

Tobing:

Many thanks for this technical information!! :D This should therefore possibly allow for potentially even larger maps and/or more effecient usage of ones computer's resources. ;)

[tobing]

Many thanks for this technical information!! :D This should therefore possibly allow for potentially even larger maps and/or more effecient usage of ones computer's resources. ;)
Remember, this would only work for random maps, because non-random maps have to be defined beforehand. A possible mix could be to have a normal, predefined map, which could be extended on the borders by random tiles.

Oh, and I didn't say it would be easy to randomly generate meaningful maps!

[Son of Moose]

Tobing:

A possible mix could be to have a normal, predefined map, which could be extended on the borders by random tiles.

That imho could be a fairly interesting variant --- which could add extra (potentially random) gameplay options built around a fixed central premise. :) In other words, one could start from a predefined position and undertake several predefined tasks BEFORE going into the virtual unknown. :) This could give rise to some interesting scenarios.

I hope that you have not been too bothered by these exchanges --- but I have found this particular discussion highly informative. I really hope that other readers have also learned something about game map design here. :D

[wodinoneeye]

Wodinoneye:



Wow --- this is certainly a most impressive achievement --- especially as it is in one of the "provinces". No doubt (if archaeologists looked in the right places) they would possibly be able to unearth similar signs of engineering prowess throught Europe and North Africa. :) Maybe these structures could somehow be integrated into a Roman CB game. ;)


Actually I just read a more accurate description of that mill complex in Gaul.
It wasnt 1/2 miles wide, but it did grind grain enough for 80000 people and did the work of 1600 slave grinding grain manually.

The book on medieval machinery says that even though the Romans had such technology, they didnt use it as much as they could have because they had more than enough slaves to do it. Just after the conquest (stats from the Domesday book census ~1100AD ) there were more than 5600 water mills in England to be taxed.

The book is interesting to me because it shows the extent that machinery and industry existed in those times (much more than I had heard of previously). It also details an awful lot of lawsuits and legal involvements for the many industries as well.

BTW for the city size comparison Paris had 200,000 people in it in the 12th century.

[wodinoneeye]

I have never seen any self-extending maps, but I have been thinking about such a thing ( ;) ) - I would say it is a kind of random map, which is generated as needed when you discover new parts of the map previously hidden under some fog of war.



Ive actually been designing and programming a system that does this.
Patterns of terrain extend existing features of the existing map following program rules for variations and valid patterns. The system is for a single player who might not explore everything, so it extends the map in front of where the player moves (the entire map range wound require more than a trillion (10^12) bytes of disk space if it was built entire). The map is divided into regular (square) zones of which the player sees an area of 15x15 zones at any one time (an awful lot of time was spent on a mechanism to roll zones in and out of memory (from disk) when needed and to have the activities in the 'rolled out' zones go on in an abstract way).


Anyway, an Egyptian map pattern might be simple (rulewise) because it extends linearly (river north/south) and desert to either side (plus some hills/moutains/oasis. But, a rough grained map of actual Egypt could be used
to select an areas flavor , which then could guide a semi-random generation of the terrain (useful if game map was to be extended to the delta/sea or far to the south where the cataracts start). Local inhabitants would also have to be generated (and their resources/ villages etc...)

Unfortunately a single map extending far which was still in city-scale would soon get too large. Multiple cities/ distant mine sites etc.. would have to be on disjunct maps. Satalite towns/villages of the capitol city could be done
(farming in the local area to provide enough food for the city inhabitants) on one map.

[wodinoneeye]

Tobing:

Somewhat like having a couple of "sub(sidiary)-maps" within the main game map? Would this add extra variation to a game? :confused:


You would have to show them on the games mini-maps (were the little red blip alert you to problems, and so you can navigate quickly to those ares..)


Hopefully (if the game could get as big as you are projecting) the locals
would be smart enough (have enough AI) to handle alot of mundane things.
If micromanaging (ala Social worker of the Nile) a city would be bad, then micromanaging the entire egyptian empire would be far worse.....

[wodinoneeye]

Tobing:



That imho could be a fairly interesting variant --- which could add extra (potentially random) gameplay options built around a fixed central premise. :) In other words, one could start from a predefined position and undertake several predefined tasks BEFORE going into the virtual unknown. :) This could give rise to some interesting scenarios.

I hope that you have not been too bothered by these exchanges --- but I have found this particular discussion highly informative. I really hope that other readers have also learned something about game map design here. :D


Of course for a 'Pharaoh' the surrounding territories were well known (the first Pharaoh was the joined kingdoms of Upper and Lower Egypt -- those Kingdoms had already existed for centuries). Thus the rough terrain map of most of egypt would already be known. Of course when the player got close enough to see it in the game, it would have to be built up in full detail (which could have fairly complex arrangements (whole existing villages full of basic level production -- which isnt too hard to generate automaticly).

[Son of Moose]

Wodinoneye:

Unfortunately a single map extending far which was still in city-scale would soon get too large. Multiple cities/ distant mine sites etc.. would have to be on disjunct maps. Satalite towns/villages of the capitol city could be done (farming in the local area to provide enough food for the city inhabitants) on one map.

Yes --- I suppose that this would indeed have to be --- unless someone could think of a really novel way to achieve this possibility. :( In other words, one would then presumably have to employ a SimCity4-type option --- of a regional map which could accommodate several SEPARATE cities within its boundaries. This would certainly be a fairly good compromise (if it was the only viable option). However, imho it is rather frustrating not being able to directly link ones separate cities in SimCity4. :o

Maybe the technology to achieve ALL of this on one map will become widely available in 5 or more years time ... ;)