Mythology and the Gods

[Pharaoh]

I was wondering if there will be gods walking the streets as there were in Zeus? And how will paying homage to the gods benefit the city?? Will you get blessed by gods?

[Ineti]

And how will paying homage to the gods benefit the city?? Will you get blessed by gods?

I hope there's a feature similar to that. That's one of the things I love about Pharaoh. Cater to the gods and you benefit; ignore them and you're in deep trouble. :)

As an aside, it would be fun to see a feature wherein if you ignore the gods long enough, your population's opinion of you changes in return.

[EmperorJay]

I asked the same question here. (http://caesar3.heavengames.com/cgi-bin/caeforumscgi/display.cgi?action=st&fn=1&tn=6061&f=1,0,0,30&st=120) And this is the answer I got:

Seeing the gods walking around a Greek city was consistent with their beliefs, apart from being a cool game dynamic. Greek mythology is replete with gods mingling with mortals. Except for Pharaoh himself, Egyptian gods were more remote.

According to that, I assume there will be no wandering gods but there will be blessings and wraths and such.

Edit: I have another question. Will we players be worshipped as gods when we're assuming the role of Pharaoh? AFAIK, Pharaohs were kinda equal to being gods.

[Ineti]

Edit: I have another question. Will we players be worshipped as gods when we're assuming the role of Pharaoh? AFAIK, Pharaohs were kinda equal to being gods.

I would assume so, but I don't know if that would affect game play...

[Keith]

I asked the same question here. (http://caesar3.heavengames.com/cgi-bin/caeforumscgi/display.cgi?action=st&fn=1&tn=6061&f=1,0,0,30&st=120) And this is the answer I got:



According to that, I assume there will be no wandering gods but there will be blessings and wraths and such.

Edit: I have another question. Will we players be worshipped as gods when we're assuming the role of Pharaoh? AFAIK, Pharaohs were kinda equal to being gods.One thing they may want to consider is an option to turn any God-effects OFF. I've had a number of Christians object, on the other board where I moderate, of having to build temples and pay virtual homage to gods in Pharaoh, Caesar, and Zeus. Caesar III had the ability to turn the Gods OFF and it might be a good feature to reach those gamers that object to this particular aspect of games.

With a on/off button it would keep everyone happy.
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[G-Force]

Since we're Pharaoh, shouldn't we get to choose whom we worship in our cities? And by that I mean that certain gods would be unavailable like in Pharaoh.

G-Force

[Josh]

Personaly I never liked the mythology involved in the games, I dont like directly seeing gods and their effects and whatnot

I'm not saying we institute atheism in our city systems, I understand households and the populace need access to religion, and I would understand the populace blaming you for natural disasters if you dont have enough of a certain temple, but having gods walk through the town... meh.

[Keith]

Personaly I never liked the mythology involved in the games, I dont like directly seeing gods and their effects and whatnot

I'm not saying we institute atheism in our city systems, I understand households and the populace need access to religion, and I would understand the populace blaming you for natural disasters if you dont have enough of a certain temple, but having gods walk through the town... meh.
You'd be a candidate for the GODS OFF button then.

I have no problems with it either way. Religion was a major factor in ancient Egyptian lives. Whether some event was perceived as a "blessing from the gods" or whether it was just a chance occurance of man or nature, such events should not be totally left out of the game.

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[Miut]

Seems to me that anyone playing an Ancient world building game should understand that it is not you doing homage to the Gods, but the person you are supposed to be playing. I see no need for Gods Off button - I think it would meanmaking major changes to the programming of the game, but then I am not a programmer, only a writer.

Maybe explaining in the blurb somewhere that the Egyptians were originally monotheistic way back before they began conquering their way up/down the Nile and as was common for centuries, absorbing local gods, would help.

The original god was Amun, the all powerful, omnipresent one, invisible etc.. who spoke and made the world and all living things.. Lemme see if I have the part that shows it is almost identical to Genisis yet predates it by a good few thousand years...

Left by the priests of Amon,
"Amon existed from the beginning, none know his emergence. No god existed before him, no other god was with him who could tell his form. He had no mother to name him, no father to beget him and say, "This is I." "

and another bit..Found in Pyramid texts of the 6th Dynasty which, on lowest computation are more than 2,000 years BC, they had the Logos idea evolved. That is the divine word of god and the son or 2nd person in a Trinity..

"The lips of King Pepy are the two Enneads; Pepy is the Great Word" and he is said to create by speaking "Pepy is the scribe of the gods, saying that which is, and that which is not" This is theory of the Word of God as the creative power, and as the King was God Incarnate, the theory of the Word made flesh is also clearly developed. This concept is found in several places at different times showing it wasn't an islated and obsolete one.

Got lovely passage of Ptah speaking the Word "He is the origin of every concrete form, of every language, of all gods, of all mankind, of all animalsand all reptiles that live... It is the Mind that makes the kas and the qualities. that creates all food and all offerings by the Word, that makes lal things that are loved and all things that are hated." and it all ends like this,
"And Ptah rested, after he had made all the things as well as all the Words of God."

So you see, there is a common monotheistic belief underlying it all. And heck, it IS a game too. ;)

Now a great place for Egyptians to see their Gods, if they were Pharaoh, was in the temples in Karnak. Building Karnak would be great you know - many different templs at many different time - and my favorites, a row of Sekhmet statues put there by er.. Thutmosis 3rd, father of Tutmoses 4th aka Akhenaten. (if I got the name right. My Egyptian books are ALL in transit for 3 months apart from a couple!)
Pharaoh and the Head Priest alone were allowed into the inner sanctum to open the naos doors and take the images of Amun, Mut and Khufu - (or was it Khonsu? Sorry, lack of books here again) out and wash and oil and dress them for the day, then make food offerings to them. Be a great opportunity to make the Egyptian Gods real in there. :D

And when we have Karnak, couldn't we have a Festival of Ophet in the streets, with the holy barque and the priests? And maybe a condemned man begging for Amumn to pardon him and show it by the swaying of the barque?
Or the festival of Hapi the Nile God/Goddess cos Hapi was hermaphrodite. :) Throwing flowers onto the waters and so on, seeing the people dancing and actually celebrating even if only once a year for a mahor festival would be SO cool!

Just a few ideas... ;)

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[Jayhawk]

One thing they may want to consider is an option to turn any God-effects OFF. I've had a number of Christians object, on the other board where I moderate, of having to build temples and pay virtual homage to gods in Pharaoh, Caesar, and Zeus.
I do wish people would learn the difference between a historically accurate game and an invitation to apostasy...

[Keith]

Seems to me that anyone playing an Ancient world building game should understand that it is not you doing homage to the Gods, but the person you are supposed to be playing. I see no need for Gods Off button - I think it would meanmaking major changes to the programming of the game, but then I am not a programmer, only a writer.


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You'd think so wouldn't you? But, alas no. The people I've dealt with don't care if its part of a story or the virtual reality of a computer game. They just object to temples and especially having to pay homage to basically what they consider false gods. When ever these people make their presence known, the universal request is for some way to turn off or avoid paying homage to the false gods in their virtual cities.

An option to turn off god effects is the best compromise.
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[Pecunia]

You'd think so wouldn't you? But, alas no. The people I've dealt with don't care if its part of a story or the virtual reality of a computer game. They just object to temples and especially having to pay homage to basically what they consider false gods.
*sigh* why is religion such a sensitive spot? Like Miut, I just don't understand that people have trouble 'paying homage' in a game because of their religion. I bet those same people don't object to killing other people in a first person shooter.

[Ineti]

You'd think so wouldn't you? But, alas no. The people I've dealt with don't care if its part of a story or the virtual reality of a computer game. They just object to temples and especially having to pay homage to basically what they consider false gods. When ever these people make their presence known, the universal request is for some way to turn off or avoid paying homage to the false gods in their virtual cities.

It may just be me, but people who can't separate computer games from reality make me nervous.

[Keith]

*sigh* why is religion such a sensitive spot? Like Miut, I just don't understand that people have trouble 'paying homage' in a game because of their religion. I bet those same people don't object to killing other people in a first person shooter.
Evangelical Christians and other sects are fairly strict in their beliefs and any "craven images". be they solid and real or just virtual gods of a game (especially pagan gods). is something they just don't want to deal with.

By allowing them to turn off god-effects you allow those that don't care to play with the full effects while allowing these conciencious objectors to turn them off. It might even help Tilted Mill sell a few more games.
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[Ineti]

Evangelical Christians and other sects are fairly strict in their beliefs and any "craven images". be they solid and real or just virtual gods of a game (especially pagan gods). is something they just don't want to deal with.

By allowing them to turn off god-effects you allow those that don't care to play with the full effects while allowing these conciencious objectors to turn them off. It might even help Tilted Mill sell a few more games.

If that's the case, wouldn't they want to disable the images of temples and shrines as well?

[G-Force]

That'll be a lot more difficult as I'm sure that religion access will be a requirement for house evolution, in whatever way it may get implemented in CotN. Changing the temples and priests would be a too big an effort because it's (probably) hardcoded into the game.

G-Force

[Azeem]

*sigh* why is religion such a sensitive spot? Like Miut, I just don't understand that people have trouble 'paying homage' in a game because of their religion. I bet those same people don't object to killing other people in a first person shooter.

I suppose we'll never figure it out, Pecunia. ;)

[Josh]

I dont reject the direct affects of gods because of religious differences

I think a citybuilding sim needs to show the effects of religion on a populace, so the people may demand more religion, and its your duty to fullfill that, I just dont like fantasy, I didnt like the gods coming down and marching through your city then dissapearing In a puff of smoke, I didnt like the gods gifts and curses

I would like a city who is "blessed by the god of war" to experience soilders who are more confident with increased moral, with enemies who are more fearfull. I would like to see the populace become happier or have less crime because of more temples. see what I mean, I dont want religion turned off, I just want religion effects to be realistic.

[EmperorJay]

Well, I see what you mean Josh, but the term "realistic" is defined diffirently for every single person. People believe that prayers are heard by a God nowadays and so they believed 3000 years ago. And people really believed that a good harvest was the work of a God and they believed a victory was achieved because of a God.

Like you, I don't like those wandering Deities. But if I pray to Osiris and I get a blessing which doubles my food income, I don't see that as unrealistic.

[Keith]

If that's the case, wouldn't they want to disable the images of temples and shrines as well?
They have also objected that as well, but the payment of homage to a false-god is what really upsets them the most.
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[Miut]

It is thought by anthropologists at least, that once upon a time some of the major gods or at least demi-gods of what we refer to as Greece but was really a collection of city states, were once real people. Like Hercules etc. That I can believe in.

I am all for a game getting as many people to buy it as is possible, but I am sure that the city reacting to you having festivals as happens in Pharaoh, and building temples and shrines, is hardwired into the game and putting in an off switch will drastically change the nature of the game. In today's times of supposed tolerance it strikes me as rather intolerant to expect a game company to cater tho this... And good point about the Shoot 'em Ups! Mind, I prefer killing alien monsters than doing a War scenario and killing other people, but that's me, I got no real problems over it.

I cannot see why these people who object to the whole religious thing are playing any games set in a non-christian setting.. They have to know the people were worshippers of a non christian pantheon of gods in the first place!

Why can't they suspend disbelief and look on the gods as variants of their god for the time they are playing the game?

How many of this type of person are there, please? It would be interesting to know the proportions.. interesting academically.

Maybe the answer is to make one set in ancient Judea and feature the Maccabean revolt and so on. ;) Rome invading and that plateau.. Massala I think it was.. The storming of Massala after you build the settlement in that eagle's eeyrie of course! :) You even get to build that ramp up, which may or may not have actually happened of course.

[Keith]

It is thought by anthropologists at least, that once upon a time some of the major gods or at least demi-gods of what we refer to as Greece but was really a collection of city states, were once real people. Like Hercules etc. That I can believe in.

I am all for a game getting as many people to buy it as is possible, but I am sure that the city reacting to you having festivals as happens in Pharaoh, and building temples and shrines, is hardwired into the game and putting in an off switch will drastically change the nature of the game. In today's times of supposed tolerance it strikes me as rather intolerant to expect a game company to cater tho this... And good point about the Shoot 'em Ups! Mind, I prefer killing alien monsters than doing a War scenario and killing other people, but that's me, I got no real problems over it.

I cannot see why these people who object to the whole religious thing are playing any games set in a non-christian setting.. They have to know the people were worshippers of a non christian pantheon of gods in the first place!

Why can't they suspend disbelief and look on the gods as variants of their god for the time they are playing the game?

How many of this type of person are there, please? It would be interesting to know the proportions.. interesting academically.

Maybe the answer is to make one set in ancient Judea and feature the Maccabean revolt and so on. ;) Rome invading and that plateau.. Massala I think it was.. The storming of Massala after you build the settlement in that eagle's eeyrie of course! :) You even get to build that ramp up, which may or may not have actually happened of course.They play these games because there probably are no comperable "Christian" games they can play.

Why they can't suspend their beliefs is something you'd have to discuss with them.

It's hard to say how many they number, I feel that there may be quite a few, but only the braver ones will voice an opinion on public messageboards about the issue, since they tend to get "shouted down" by great unwashed secular mass of game players out there. They tend to draw rather hostile responses from other people who fell put upon by them for their beliefs. I've had to disarm a few such instances recently on another messageboard.

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[Ammurit]

I dont reject the direct affects of gods because of religious differences

I think a citybuilding sim needs to show the effects of religion on a populace, so the people may demand more religion, and its your duty to fullfill that, I just dont like fantasy, I didnt like the gods coming down and marching through your city then dissapearing In a puff of smoke, I didnt like the gods gifts and curses.

To the people who worshipped these gods and goddesses it wasn't fantasy. Greek mythology is full of interaction between gods and mortals.

I did find it odd at first that the gods and goddesses in Zeus/Poseidon couldn't be made friendly by offerings or festivals, but then I thought about it a bit more, and it made perfect sense. Hera, for example, hated Zeus for all of his "indiscretions" with other women, mortal and goddess alike. Anyone who offered safe haven to Zeus' mistresses would be on Hera's bad side, so to speak. It was rather fitting that if Zeus were a friendly god in a scenario, then Hera would be unfriendly.

[Miut]

Hear hear on that. The worship of their gods to those earlier people was literally life and death to them, they believed. If they didnt propitiate them, the crops would fail, the Nile not flood etc.

And I also agree that the Greek gods had internecine feuds that set mortals against each other. :) So it one god supported a city, those not on his side would oppose it all all he/she tried to do for that city.

[Azeem]

I like having mythology in the game. It was the aspect that made Zeus/Poseidon really stand out. The individual stories of the myths and the pantheon make it all more fascinating and intriguing.

"Realism" is way overrated. ;) Games should be an escape from the real world, not a sim of the real world itself. :)

[EmperorJay]

I like having mythology in the game. It was the aspect that made Zeus/Poseidon really stand out. The individual stories of the myths and the pantheon make it all more fascinating and intriguing.

"Realism" is way overrated. ;) Games should be an escape from the real world, not a sim of the real world itself. :)

I agree, games should be an escape from the real world and not a sim of it. Fortunately, these games are based on a real world from the past, so I can still escape from my real world.

[wodinoneeye]

I was wondering if there will be gods walking the streets as there were in Zeus? And how will paying homage to the gods benefit the city?? Will you get blessed by gods?


Hmm, we dont even get fake ones in festival masks...
(floats carrying statues would have been nice)

[MarkDuffy]

I've never read this thread before. Thankx for bumping it up, Wodinoneeye!

It gave me quite a chuckle. Especially the mythology vs "real" God discussion.

[Raufgar Telcontar]

Oooo, interesting pre-game discussion. Keith's replies were very intellectual, I guess he has had to put out many a fire on the boards. :)