The Military

[Keith]

I see we get to forge our army from peasants.

Are we going to suffer size limits like we had in C3 and Pharaoh with limited numbers of forts or can we recruit companies as in C2 and form truly sizable armies?

While I don't want a war game, I would appreciate a expansion of the military aspects compared to the games of the past.

In Caesar II we could build "cohorts" by raising the pay of the military. Then build them a fort on the provincial map. During a invasion we could choose what chort we wanted and send them on their way to intercept the enemy.

We also had the option to hire mercenaries and add them to a cohort.

While I am not sure if mercenaries were part of the Egyptian army system, I know in later periods Greeks did serve in the Egyptian service as mercenaries.

Will we be able to control battles in foreign lands, or are we just going to send troops on their way and hope for the best?

Will we "train" generals to lead our armies into battle?

Are we going to have interventions from gods like Seth on behalf of our city as in Pharaoh, or are we going to have to rely solely on the might and leadership of our armies?

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[EmperorJay]

From an interview I remember having read that also the size of your military is affected by how you rule your city/country. If the people are happy with you, they'll be more willing to fight.

I personally would like to see that their appreciation of you affects the morale of the soldiers rather than the size of the army.

I see no problem in having no mercenaries available up until a certain period. Altough I'm fairly sure you can request help from other Egyptian cities. I can't recall ever having heard of other civilization lending help to Egypt, so I wonder if we will be able to ask help from, say, the Hittites.

As for increased strategy. I won't be sad if strategy is kept to a bare minimum, but I would appreciate an increase. I already said on HG that some sort of map would be nice, on which you can order your generals what to do. I.e. prepare flanking moves by chariots. Of course, people who don't want to get that much involved should be able to use an other system.

This being (partially) a simulation of real life. I think that real generals, which can be talked to, should be part of the game. Some of them are less capable then others, but there might just be an academy in the city to train them. Maybe one could be prone to propaganda and joins the other side (during Civl Wars perhaps) while another general just won't surrender and rather send every soldier into death.

[Keith]

I agree with you on the size of the army question. I would have liked to have seen it tied to the size of your population, which would be little more realistic. Their morale would be effected by how you rule your city, and of course how good of a military leader you are.

It would be interesting to have intelligent "lieutenants" that could carry out at least some basic military strategy on their own or your defined orders.

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[Ineti]

There were mercenaries of a sort in ancient Egypt's armies. IIRC, the Medjay were from Nubia and served in the armies and as support to the 'police.'

It would be neat to see the earlier missions have armies comprised mostly of part-time farmers and civilians, and as the time period moves closer to the Middle and later kingdoms, start seeing a more formal organized army.

[Lord Seti]

Would there be a conscription option for the military in times of trouble?

If the size of your army is affected by the city's morale, then conscripting peasants for your forces (which one presumes would lower city happiness) would that mean that city happiness would sink so that you would not be able to keep your new troops?

I would like to see a feature to hire mercenaries. That would solve the population happiness problem (and likely as not create a financial problem) but it is historically based. Certainly in the New Kingdom the Egyptians used large numbers of mercenaries. In fact these mercenaries eventually replaced the native born rulers.

Now that would be an interesting feature to include in the game. :eek:

[Ineti]

If the size of your army is affected by the city's morale, then conscripting peasants for your forces (which one presumes would lower city happiness) would that mean that city happiness would sink so that you would not be able to keep your new troops?

Would it necessarily lower happiness that much, though? I got the impression that many Egyptians were happy to serve pharaoh in whatever capacity.

Not that they'd all be thrilled to be marching off to their possible deaths, though.

[EmperorJay]

If you are respected, the people will be willing to march to death for you. If you are a tyran, well... I think there would be many people that would try to not be drafted.

Egyptians were willing to serve good rulers, but not all Pharaohs were that great.

[Elvenwarrior2001]

While I think expanded military would be quite kewl in this game, it's not technically necessary for a city builder. As long as there's something real kewl in it, and it's a little different then most city-buliders, I'll love it. (Nothing against regular city-builders, but I like to see things change a little, and not have game clones. ;))

As for battle games: Lords of Magic was a sort of battle game, and wouldn't mind seeing in the future, in a non-city-building title, some sort of strategy/battle game.

Elven

[Josh]

Personaly I would like to see military size limited not by an arbitrary cap, but instead by the cost of the units and upkeep. Sure you could have a rediculously large army, but you would need a rediculously large city to support it, and you would be pouring all of your resources into it

In the old city builders we could hit the cap while our city was still in it's infancy, which shouldnt be the case; You should be allowed to have a large military if you wish to pay a substantial price.

I just dont like caps, I prefer limits to be in the game design, (yes i could have half of my city be drafted into the military if i wish, but my city would be rediculously unhappy poor and unproductive, that makes it a stratagy game, since it offers you the opportunity to have a really poor stratagy)

[Keith]

Personaly I would like to see military size limited not by an arbitrary cap, but instead by the cost of the units and upkeep. Sure you could have a rediculously large army, but you would need a rediculously large city to support it, and you would be pouring all of your resources into it

In the old city builders we could hit the cap while our city was still in it's infancy, which shouldnt be the case; You should be allowed to have a large military if you wish to pay a substantial price.

I just dont like caps, I prefer limits to be in the game design, (yes i could have half of my city be drafted into the military if i wish, but my city would be rediculously unhappy poor and unproductive, that makes it a stratagy game, since it offers you the opportunity to have a really poor stratagy)
The problem is that the larger things get and the more we have in the game the more resources are used on the computer and it might cause some lower end machines to crash. Hence the "sprite limits" of the old games. I doubt if we'll ever be free of some kind of arbitrary caps.
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[G-Force]

Maybe we could be allowed to change (or influence) the sprite limit so that better computers can go further.

G-Force

[EmperorJay]

But then you get the problem that you can't download someone else's savegame because you run the risk of crashing your game.

Maybe there could be a system with 2 modes normal limit and enormous limit, players with a low end system then know what they have to look for. If the limit would be diffirent for every single player, it wouldn't work IMHO.

[Keith]

Maybe we could be allowed to change (or influence) the sprite limit so that better computers can go further.

G-ForceIt's a feature that would most likely be too problematic to offer and probably not worth the time it would take to program.
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[Atlantean Relic]

I liked the fact that the military in zeus reflected the economic condition of your city. If they have a similar system here I hope it reflects Your city even more closely. Upper class gives chariots or heavy shock troops , mid class gives basic sword men ,etc. Unless of course Pharaoh's Army was completely professional. I don't know much about Ancient Egyptian military.

[Ineti]

Military units should also be dependent on the time period. If you're playing an Old Kingdom scenario, there shouldn't be horses or chariots. I don't think there were 'heavy shock troops', but it would be neat to see a unit of Medjay supplementing the Egyptian regulars.

[EmperorJay]

I'm sure they'll take care of that, Ineti. They did so with Pharaoh, Cleo and Emperor so I'm quite sure we won't see chariots during the Old Kingdom period.

Atlantean Relic, I don't know much about Egyptian Military either, but I'm quite sure they did not have draft. The fact that you gave Horses to the wealthy is Zeus, was because it was common for the wealthy Greeks to do the fighting. In Egypt, the wealthy did not participate in the fighting but rather engaged in politics, IIRC.

[Josh]

I would really like to see more emphasis on the military in the future games, a better military engine (battles really lost their appeal to me after Ceaser3, units just became too hard to control) let me bold this incase a developer is skimming Units became too hard to control at Pharoh onwards

I'm not talking about turning the games into Total War, I would simply like to see a larger more complex military at higher cost making a great stong military one of the ultimate goals of a city (I dont want it to be so easy to build as many forts as you want up to the limit)

[Lord Seti]

In Egypt, the wealthy did not participate in the fighting but rather engaged in politics

Yes, the richer you were the more valuable you were and less likely to have to go do unpleasant things, like fighting.

I like the idea of limiting the size of the military based on the economy, but I'd rather have the available units limited by time period rather than economics.

[Azeem]

I'm sure they'll take care of that, Ineti. They did so with Pharaoh, Cleo and Emperor so I'm quite sure we won't see chariots during the Old Kingdom period.

Atlantean Relic, I don't know much about Egyptian Military either, but I'm quite sure they did not have draft. The fact that you gave Horses to the wealthy is Zeus, was because it was common for the wealthy Greeks to do the fighting. In Egypt, the wealthy did not participate in the fighting but rather engaged in politics, IIRC.

If I recall correctly, conscriptions did occur sometimes, but it wasn't too often. In much of the earlier periods, mercenaries were the mainstay of the Pharaoh's armies.

[Celebithil Dae]

Why fight when you can pay your neighbors to do it for you?

[Keith]

I would really like to see more emphasis on the military in the future games, a better military engine (battles really lost their appeal to me after Ceaser3, units just became too hard to control) let me bold this incase a developer is skimming Units became too hard to control at Pharoh onwards

I'm not talking about turning the games into Total War, I would simply like to see a larger more complex military at higher cost making a great stong military one of the ultimate goals of a city (I dont want it to be so easy to build as many forts as you want up to the limit)I never had a problem with controlling units. What problems?

Actually, I'd like a step back to the old Caesar II battle screen where you could arrange your troops and formations, give them basic orders and then turn the battle on, then making changes a the battle progressed. Caesar II battle screen battles were oh-so-much better than those later introduced by Caesar III and the later games. Instead of 16 men representing a cohort or legion you would actually have large formations of men number close to 100 or more, which was pretty good for 1995-1996 type computers.

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[EmperorJay]

Since I've never played C2, I can't comment on the battlesystem, altough it sounds very nice. However, I've never had any troubles with controlling the units in Pharaoh, Zeus and Emperor.

Then again, I'm quite sure the whole military part of the game will be quite diffirent from what we've seen before.

[Keith]

One thing we haven't seen in screenshots are those dealing with the military. I would hope that some of these will be released sometime soon. I hope we also might see some shots dealing with naval warfare.
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[Elvenwarrior2001]

I just plain combat sshots would work for me. ;)

Elven

[Josh]

for some reason just clicking on a unit and telling it to move somewhere felt so sluggish in pharaoh compared to C3, in C3 it just went wherever you told it, and quickly, I could issue plenty of commands in a minute (remember leapfrogging javelin throwers) with pharaoh it felt like i could make a few and the battle was already over, and it always seemed like it would select the wrong unit if they got too close together... I havent played pharaoh in a while to remember percicely what the problems were, but i was just left with a general feeling of.. I think i will play the peacefull senarios from now on (wheras i always played military ones in C3)

[Elvenwarrior2001]

I played according to stregic advantages. i.e. Goals set. The land. And then I factored in the militrary and figured out which one I would have more fun playing. Then I can come back and play the other one later. ;)

Elven

[Keith]

I played according to stregic advantages. i.e. Goals set. The land. And then I factored in the militrary and figured out which one I would have more fun playing. Then I can come back and play the other one later. ;)

Elven
From the things I've seen, it is not clear that we'll have that dual-path option in CotN. There maybe no avoiding combat this time.
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[Elvenwarrior2001]

That'd be fine. I was mostly talking about my C3 strategy. ;) Actually...not being able to avoid combat may make it more challenging. :)

Elven

[Keith]

That'd be fine. I was mostly talking about my C3 strategy. ;) Actually...not being able to avoid combat may make it more challenging. :)

Elven
There are those that play the old games and tend to avoid playing the "dangerous" or military cities of the game. These people might be a little upset if they are forced to fight.
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[Elvenwarrior2001]

Okay...that's not my fault. I just said that I wouldn't have a problem with it. And they could play non-campaign mode too. I don't think CB fans are so flighty that half of them are going to get upset over having to fight a little while they build their city.

Elven

[Keith]

Okay...that's not my fault. I just said that I wouldn't have a problem with it. And they could play non-campaign mode too. I don't think CB fans are so flighty that half of them are going to get upset over having to fight a little while they build their city.

Elven
I don't believe that many fans of the game that prefer a more non-confrontational path would settle for just open play. The devs would be alienating a good portion of the fan base and the fan base is small enough already.
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[Nero Would]

I don't believe that many fans of the game that prefer a more non-confrontational path would settle for just open play. The devs would be alienating a good portion of the fan base and the fan base is small enough already.

I agree that open play (while attractive in its own way) is no substitute for a challenging goals-based mission.

I'm in favour of the approach taken in Zeus, where you could often (but not always) find either a peaceful or a military way to win the same mission. Sometimes you couldn't avoid being invaded, but in those cases, you still had the choice of bribing the enemy (if you had the money) or using auto-defend to command your armies.

The only problem with this in Zeus was that the auto-defend AI sometimes seemed to make mistakes. But with an improved AI, I think this is the ideal solution. It allows the peacefully inclined and the military types (and those in between) to play all the missions, and make them (within some limits) as peaceful or warlike as they want.

[mouse]

Not the least bit flighty nor are alot of other city builders but many of us thought being able bribe our way out of a fight was a step forward :D Alot of us care nothing for the military side of city building :D We would be very offended if all that way available to us was open play :(

[Keith]

I agree that open play (while attractive in its own way) is no substitute for a challenging goals-based mission.

I'm in favour of the approach taken in Zeus, where you could often (but not always) find either a peaceful or a military way to win the same mission. Sometimes you couldn't avoid being invaded, but in those cases, you still had the choice of bribing the enemy (if you had the money) or using auto-defend to command your armies.

The only problem with this in Zeus was that the auto-defend AI sometimes seemed to make mistakes. But with an improved AI, I think this is the ideal solution. It allows the peacefully inclined and the military types (and those in between) to play all the missions, and make them (within some limits) as peaceful or warlike as they want.
Yea, that auto-defend option was a little quirky. I just played through the entire set of Poseidon adventures last week and in at least one city the auto-defend kept sending my troops to the opposite side of the city from the direction of the invasion.

Something along the lines of Zeus/Emperor would be preferable to a dual path career mode in Pharaoh and Caesar III, I think.
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[Elvenwarrior2001]

Something you forgot to mention: Chances are most CB fans won't have any problem with there being combat involved. There was in most of the past CB games. Are they suddenly going to have a CB fan uprising now?

Elven

[Keith]

Something you forgot to mention: Chances are most CB fans won't have any problem with there being combat involved. There was in most of the past CB games. Are they suddenly going to have a CB fan uprising now?

Elven
As mentioned earlier, the previous games of Caesar III and Pharaoh had a dual career path you could chose....one "dangerous" involving combat and one "peaceful" with little or no combat at all.

I have played both career types.

I have seen many posts that state a sole intrest in playing just the peaceful missions on the old VU/Sierra boards.

In Zeus and Emperor even though there was no dual career path you did have the option to bribe an enemy to go away for a while. Some have even said that they felt that even with bribing the system used in Zeus and Emperor was still too much combat for them.

There has to be some sort of balance or optional path so that those that prefer a more "peaceful" game can play CotN they way they wish, and those that want more battles can do it their way.
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[EmperorJay]

I do hope the bribe option stays, I'm sure the Egyptians bribed (payed and demanded) too!

On a personal note, I enjoy missions without combat as much as missions with combat.

[Elvenwarrior2001]

Of course...in C3 once you got further along, the "peaceful" provinces still had fighting. Just less then the "dangerous" ones. ;)

Elven

[Keith]

^bump^


We still haven't heard much about this aspect of the game and are still waiting.

[Battle Boar]

1. In C3 we have military academy to upgrade soldiers, e.g. legions have 1 more formation and go up 1 level, but it is removed since pharaoh, right?

2. Personally I dislike the existence of navy, because I can't see whether the coming enemies are soldiers or navy! Which one should I build to counter!!

3. Why can't we see which entry of city the enemies are coming from? We should build 2000 tiles of walls and 50 sentry towers to protect a city?

4. In real world, a new born city doesn't have much to bribe, so it must seek help from neighbors, mercenaries or enemy of the enemy to protect them. Just pay them back later. But in emperor even allies don't wish to help, and with some luck half a fort will come. That's GREAT!

5. I always catch spies in emperor, and they say, "I must hide quickly". ****, I ALREADY CAUGHT YOU!

6. In AOM the Egyptians have Nubian Mercenaries. I want to see mercenaries betray the pharaoh and burn the city! Just like riots/ gladiator rebels in C3. Funny, isn't it?

7. Why a capital city can't build something stronger than average forts, gates and towers? Let's say, an imperial army? In C3 the Roman soldiers from Rome to remove you are stronger than untrained soldiers (no military academy).

[Miut]

Have to admit, I prefer the peaceful routes because I had problems with some military missions. That doesn't mean I would like to see no war missions - I just prefer to be able to play them seperately rather than while empire building or city building. I know, not very realistic, but hey, I did say I didn't take realism too fer. Take Qadesh for instance, I played it about 5 times before I finally won it. :(

If offered the choice, I would play the peaceful missions, then go back and individually play the war ones - which is what I plan to do with Pharaoh when I have finished the Cleo missions. :)

[Keith]

1. In C3 we have military academy to upgrade soldiers, e.g. legions have 1 more formation and go up 1 level, but it is removed since pharaoh, right?

2. Personally I dislike the existence of navy, because I can't see whether the coming enemies are soldiers or navy! Which one should I build to counter!! Well, these games have never been intended to be wargames so the military aspects have been reduced and simplified.

Since they haven't given us much information on the military aspects of CotN, we don't know if there will be a "academy" or not. It seems we will have "generals" or military leaders, so there must be some form of military education.

3. Why can't we see which entry of city the enemies are coming from? We should build 2000 tiles of walls and 50 sentry towers to protect a city? Like having naval forces, not being able to see where the enemy enteres the map beforehand is just one of the difficulties that you had to deal with in the old games. It's part of the challenge. You just have to be prepared.

4. In real world, a new born city doesn't have much to bribe, so it must seek help from neighbors, mercenaries or enemy of the enemy to protect them. Just pay them back later. But in emperor even allies don't wish to help, and with some luck half a fort will come. That's GREAT!Allies will help you in Emperor if their mood is high enough. If they don't like your city they won't help. Your cities feng shui and how you treat your neighbors requests for goods will influence their mood.

5. I always catch spies in emperor, and they say, "I must hide quickly". ****, I ALREADY CAUGHT YOU!You don't have the proper hero in your city to catch and turn the spies against their masters. Just finding them by clicking on them doesn't do anything. Feel free to ask about this on the Emperor forum (http://community.sierra.com/WebX?14@@.ef708fb).

6. In AOM the Egyptians have Nubian Mercenaries. I want to see mercenaries betray the pharaoh and burn the city! Just like riots/ gladiator rebels in C3. Funny, isn't it?

7. Why a capital city can't build something stronger than average forts, gates and towers? Let's say, an imperial army? In C3 the Roman soldiers from Rome to remove you are stronger than untrained soldiers (no military academy).What would be stronger the forts, walls, and towers? A royal army is a possiblity, but then there isn't much military info available yet. I would suspect that your military might evolves as your city grows.
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[Jayhawk]

Why can't we see which entry of city the enemies are coming from? We should build 2000 tiles of walls and 50 sentry towers to protect a city?
Because much like you seeing where the enemy will come from, the enemy will see which parts of your town are unprotected and attack there. You can't really expect them to just pick the bit you defended most heavily, now can you? ;)

[Caesar Alan]

Some interesting titbits about the combat system can be found in an interview with Chris at HomeLan Fed (http://www.homelanfed.com/index.php?id=24623). We're actually going to get two combat systems: a local one for the small skirmishes that take place in and around your city, and a higher level system for those missions of conquest.

Alan

[EmperorJay]

Interesting interview, from what I read, I think I'm going to like the military aspect a lot.

The training and equipement seems to be much more in depth while at the same time the fighting stuff is still quite limited. The military is much more a part of the process now.

[Keith]

It will be interesting to see how military leaders/generals will effect a battle. Emperor touched on this somewhat with the ability of certain ancestral heroes to improve the fighting capabilities of your army by their presence.

One thing not mentioned is whether or not the military will gain experience as they fight battles and become better as a result or is there going to be some sort of artficial boost to their morale and capabilities as implemented in Caesar III and Pharaoh with the placement of a military academy.
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[Jayhawk]

We're actually going to get two combat systems
Makes one wonder if one will be allowed to go indepth in any particular overview battle.

[Anguille]

I am wondering if there's a separate screen where you can have the battle. Considering the game uses the engine of Empire Earth, i guess that battles will look fantastic! I really hope so, because i am a strategy freak, and despite loving Emperor, Zeus, Pharao and Caesar 3, i was always unsatisfied with the military solution (which i love in Caesar 2 or Lords of the realm 2).

At least i hope we'll have enough space to manoeuvre and meep the enemy forces before they get to the city.

Cross my fingers. :rolleyes:

[Keith]

I am wondering if there's a separate screen where you can have the battle. Considering the game uses the engine of Empire Earth, i guess that battles will look fantastic! I really hope so, because i am a strategy freak, and despite loving Emperor, Zeus, Pharao and Caesar 3, i was always unsatisfied with the military solution (which i love in Caesar 2 or Lords of the realm 2).

At least i hope we'll have enough space to manoeuvre and meep the enemy forces before they get to the city.

Cross my fingers. :rolleyes:
While I never had a problem with the battle screen of C2 many people did. When switching to and from the the battle screen the computer screen would sometimes hang at a blank screen due to caching problems. I believe that is the one main reason why all battles in C3 and the rest of the series take place on one map.

The battle screen was fun and I did miss it, but it was problematic.
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[Azeem]

I'm wondering if they'll still have the "Bribe Enemy" option that was featured in Zeus and Emperor. Sometimes, some of us are simply too busy building our cities (and gardens ;) ) to be bothered by annoyances like invasions. :D

[Keith]

It depends on the nature of the military part of the game, I suppose. We don't know how large a part the military will play other than local militia patrols and expeditionary forces to establish resource camps, etc. I don't think most Pharaoh's took too kindly to invasions and probably didn't do much bribing off of the enemy.

Maybe the game will just use the old "dual path" system where you either select a dangerous more militarilly active city or a more peaceful one with little if any military activity.

It might be interesting just to have a optional ON/OFF setting that would either allow or disallow military activity for those that want a choice.
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[Nero Would]

As I've said before, I'm in favour of some way for those of us who are militarily challenged to avoid having to actually direct our troops in battle.

Having a choice between "peaceful" and "military" missions is one way. But what we have heard of the campaign structure seems to suggest that this is not the way it works in CotN.

Being able to bribe the invader is another way. But as Keith says, it seems unlikely that bribary was a common way of dealing with an enemy, so this may be a little unrealistic.

My preference would be for the player to have the option of handing over control of the army to an AI general who would direct the troops in battle. This would be like the autodefend function in Zeus (there were some problems reported with autodefend in Zeus, so I'm assuming that those problems would be fixed). I prefer this because I think that building miltary forces and defenses is an interesting part of designing and building a city, and certainly has a place in any city-builder game. Being able to use those forces in battle is separate challenge that some people enjoy, but others do not. Making this part of the game optional should please both groups.

[Anguille]

While I never had a problem with the battle screen of C2 many people did. When switching to and from the the battle screen the computer screen would sometimes hang at a blank screen due to caching problems. I believe that is the one main reason why all battles in C3 and the rest of the series take place on one map.

The battle screen was fun and I did miss it, but it was problematic.
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I've personaly never experienced any problems with it. I guess that's why i didn't understand why they didn't use it in Caesar 3.

[tobing]

I would also prefer to have the possibility to engage an AI-general. Generally I don't like to fuss around in the battle but stand aside and direkt troops, if doing any work at all :D.

Ah, I would also like to habe the option to execute him if he looses the battle...

[Keith]

Well, we do know that we will be able to have "military leaders". How intelligent and able they will be is another question.

[Jayhawk]

Which of course raises the question: Can we train them to get better?

And maybe even: Do we stand a risk of a coup if we have intelligent generals?

[EmperorJay]

That last question is an interesting one. When you're doing a bad job citizens come to protest but when you really mess up, some generals come to take over the throne. Nice.

I'm fairly sure you'll be able to train generals. You can make shopkeepers "better" by giving them finer raw materials f.e. and I think that you'll possibly have some sort of academy. I do hope that they get better because of experience too.

[JDF]

Judging by the latest poll in the website, there doesn't seem to be a huge interest in the military aspect of the game. I voted that way though.

[Wen Kha-Ne]

The Egyptian military and navy are actually quite interesting to me. Not in Pharaoh or anything, but the history of it and the the amount of units used. Not only were they one of the first zcivilizsations to use mercenaries, but the fact they used it so well in their conquest of the Middle-east. It would be a bigger shame than usual if they left out the gleaming speartips and Nubian mercenaries in CotN. Otherwise I still prefer peaceful missions, but you can't leave out one of the greatest armies of the ancient world.

[Bizkit]

I'd like the bribe system to live on too. Having half of your city razed isn't very pleasant. It gets tougher if there are a lot of cities on the map, you get attacked way too often.

Personally, I'd like to see my military the AoE style, even thought it might mean trouble with the computer resources. Having 16 soldiers and imagining they're a company isn't much fun.

Regarding the entry point of enemy troops.. Maybe there should be different ones. The more powerful armies (who liked to make battle using unwritten rules), of neighbouring empires and kingdoms, could set camp at the edge of the map, giving you a bit of time to muster your troops. And the weaker nubian raiders, set on looting and pillaging, on horseback, should just attack the old way, appearing in a random corner of the map.

There's something that hasn't been talked about yet. Well, haven't found anything about it. What about the attacks WE make? Will we be able to control our troops when attacking enemy cities or will we just dispatch them along with a general and wait for the outcome? The interesting thing about this matter is that we'd get to see how enemy cities develop and look like.

[EmperorJay]

You won't be able to control troops abroad. You sent one of your generals with troops to capture resource sites and perhaps cities.

What influence you have on the agressiveness, formation etc. is unknown (to me at least).

[Keith]

AoE isn't a citybuilder. It's a strategy wargame dressed up like one. The military in the citybuilder series has been traditionally downplayed to keep the focus on building and not warfare.

Emperor managed to keep the balance even with the increase in the military to a maximum of 12 forts. You still had to evolve your elite housing before you could get those extra forts after the first two. What I really miss is the old battle screen from Caesar II.

There have always been multiple map entry points. Most of the citybuilder editors let the designer select a "random" entry point. In most of the campaign missions though the enemy usually appeared in one or two areas that represented their direction of approach from their country.

Enemies entering the maps have always paused for a short time. However, if you made the mistake of building too close to the map edge they would immeditely start to attack whatever it was you had built.

As far as we know and it has been partially confirmed that combat outside of your city map will occur off screen and out of our control, just as it was with the "distant battles" and "conquer/raid" missions of the previous citybuilders.

Except for the last item just mentioned above we have no real knowledge of what the combat system will be. I think you can pretty much toss out most of what we know from the previous games. I would suspect that random map entry points would be retained but I doubt we'll see the same system of the previous games.
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[Bizkit]

What I meant by "AoE style" was that you could muster and deploy large armies and had a lot of options when maneuvring them (individual control over soldiers). Plus, you had many different types of units. I don't think I ever saw that in a city builder. Of course, CoTN will be a city builder, not a RTS (I wouldn't like having to worry too much about the military side anyway, a battle now and then will do it for me), but a handful of elements from RTS's could be implemented to spice it up a bit.

[Keith]

What I meant by "AoE style" was that you could muster and deploy large armies and had a lot of options when maneuvring them (individual control over soldiers). Plus, you had many different types of units. I don't think I ever saw that in a city builder. Of course, CoTN will be a city builder, not a RTS (I wouldn't like having to worry too much about the military side anyway, a battle now and then will do it for me), but a handful of elements from RTS's could be implemented to spice it up a bit.
Caesar II had that. The you recruited soldiers through pay and you could end up with a large body of men on the battle screen where you could control the setup positions, formation, speed, and movement of your troops in the battle. However it was eliminated in Caesar III because the constant caching involved between switching from the game to the battle screen caused many computers problems either crashing the game or leaving you sitting a black screen.

[Bizkit]

All we can do is hope for the best and wait until the end of the year. I'm sure the vast majority of players will be thrilled about the game. I'll probably have to wait for a copy until 2005. A review of a game in a western magazine means a preview in Romania. I'll just play the demo over and over again. :D Speaking of which (I know it's off topic), is their any information on when the demo version will hit the market? I'll be able to get my hands on that one as soon as the rest of you do. If it'll be available for download, that is.

[Wen Kha-Ne]

I really hope Tilted Mill have kept the 'Raid' button from Zeus and Emperor. It was good to know that the wages for the army would not be wasted because it was idle. I could just send them on a light raid every now and then.

[Keith]

I would not expect to see a demo until the game is about to be released, or shortly thereafter.

[imhotep3147]

I apologize if anyone has posted this thought but I just couldn't read through four pages of replies (sorry all :o I'm lazy )
But I rather liked having the rabble forces like in Zeus (?) where if I had inadvertantly "forgotten" to plan for my defenses a group of my loyal subjects would bravely march out and defend my glorious self against the enemy armed with nothing more than an armful of rocks..... *sigh* oh the devotion....... :D

[Keith]

I apologize if anyone has posted this thought but I just couldn't read through four pages of replies (sorry all :o I'm lazy )
But I rather liked having the rabble forces like in Zeus (?) where if I had inadvertantly "forgotten" to plan for my defenses a group of my loyal subjects would bravely march out and defend my glorious self against the enemy armed with nothing more than an armful of rocks..... *sigh* oh the devotion....... :D
There is a sort of "Military" thread, that has fallen way off the front page, mostly because TM has been pretty tight lipped bout what the military aspects of the game will be.

All we know so far is that you won't have a "rabble". Instead you will have city guards that will protect the city do the police work.

The army will used for leading trade missions and missions to find new resources, and for off-map fighting that the player will not be able to control. There will be a "general" or military leader of sorts, and most probably some sort of military academy to train your troops and leaders in.
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[wodinoneeye]

There is a sort of "Military" thread, that has fallen way off the front page, mostly because TM has been pretty tight lipped bout what the military aspects of the game will be.

All we know so far is that you won't have a "rabble". Instead you will have city guards that will protect the city do the police work.

The army will used for leading trade missions and missions to find new resources, and for off-map fighting that the player will not be able to control. There will be a "general" or military leader of sorts, and most probably some sort of military academy to train your troops and leaders in.
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I hope they apply enough effort to the abstract (non-city) aspect of the game.

Recieving dispatches from remote events and possibly sending (delayed)orders.

Intelligence reports from the 'empire' to make decisions to allocate resources or to do diplomacy etc...

Some kind of neat symbolic map of Egypt (and further) on which token are moved to indicate known progress of the army(armies) and to mark control of territory.

Building up regiments and mobilizing ones from other cities (once a nation exists) to amass an army for major actions....

The opponents (foreigners, rival cities, vassals, etc...) should have enough strategy to adapt to the players actions.

Im still curious as to there being ANY tactical control on the city map, whether the guards will just charge at enemies or the Pharaoh has any real
control. Placement of static defenses walls and towers?

[Nero Would]

There is a sort of "Military" thread, that has fallen way off the front page, mostly because TM has been pretty tight lipped bout what the military aspects of the game will be.

All we know so far is that you won't have a "rabble". Instead you will have city guards that will protect the city do the police work.

The army will used for leading trade missions and missions to find new resources, and for off-map fighting that the player will not be able to control. There will be a "general" or military leader of sorts, and most probably some sort of military academy to train your troops and leaders in.

It does seem as though it's time for some more information from the developers about the strategic military aspects of the game. I realise that it's not the main focus of the game. But, to the extent that it exists, it is a radically different part of the game than the rest of the city building, so I think it would be worth describing (and I say this even though I'm not a big fan of the military aspects of the game).

[dreamsoftwilight]

I didnt like the focus of the military in the other CB's. the fighting campaigns werent as fun as the develop the city campains and such.

[Bizkit]

Waging wars was pretty natural back then. Actually, that hasn't changed much. :o
You could just use sandbox mode, but that eliminates the fun of going through a campaign. I don't think there will be any 'pretty' campaigns, where you won't have to fight any battles. Who knows..

[imhotep3147]

While the military aspect of CBs wasn't really my thing, I didn't always shy away from it......I guess if it's part of the game then so be it and if it isn't, well I'll be somewhat relieved. Maybe the reason their not saying anything about the military in CotN is because they don't want to stop anyone from buying the game based on its military content or lack thereof?
No rabble?? darn......I was looking forward to smiting mine enemies with rock throwing peasants :mad: bah humbug. ;)

[Azeem]

I wonder if they'll implement a new system for naval combat (whereas the ship-to-ship combat in "Pharaoh" was merely ships shooting ballista bolts at each other)?

Anyways, here is a bit of information about ancient Egyptian naval warfare, if anyone is interested. I won't write up an essay since I'm not as informed as Miut. :)

Ancient Egyptian Naval Warfare (http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/navy.htm)

[Bugsy]

I liked the fact that the military in zeus reflected the economic condition of your city. If they have a similar system here I hope it reflects Your city even more closely. Upper class gives chariots or heavy shock troops , mid class gives basic sword men ,etc. Unless of course Pharaoh's Army was completely professional. I don't know much about Ancient Egyptian military.
The idea with that is still, the professional gets paid, and has to live somewhere near the city. Depending on rank, the pay is better or worse, and thus, so is their housing. I would think it a good idea to be able to adjust their payscales, and bounties and spoils of war. They did indeed pillage and plunder back then, routinely it seems.

On that note, I think a good scenario idea (if there will be scenarios) would be to have you begin as an insurgent under a bad Pharaoh's reign, have to build some forces and a city, and take the current Pharaoh down, as has happened in Egpyt's hystory, and all statues of the previous Pharaoh were torn down, and at times, their temples, and the bricks reused in the new Pharaoh's projects. Continuing on, trying to gain lands for Egypt, taking out other nearby rulers either by them joining because of your growing reputation, or because of your brute force, until the Pharaoh rules all of Egypt. I think that would be an excellent military scenario to include. :D

[Keith]

I liked the fact that the military in zeus reflected the economic condition of your city. If they have a similar system here I hope it reflects Your city even more closely. Upper class gives chariots or heavy shock troops , mid class gives basic sword men ,etc. Unless of course Pharaoh's Army was completely professional. I don't know much about Ancient Egyptian military.
The Greeks were more egalitarian in their military make than most. It was their custom to draw their army from citizens soldiers. They didn't keep standing armies. This is not the case in many other cultures of the time.

The only thing we do know about the military is what TM has given us so far, city guards to protect and police the city, the army to wage war off screen and to lead expeditions for resources and trade, and military leaders to control the army. They just mentioned that they haven't got the military system fully polished yet so they don't want to reveal too much more.

I am assuming that the development team is continuing their previous philosophy of seconding the miliary aspects CotN to the needs of the City Building parts of the game.

[wodinoneeye]

The Greeks were more egalitarian in their military make than most. It was their custom to draw their army from citizens soldiers. They didn't keep standing armies. This is not the case in many other cultures of the time.

The only thing we do know about the military is what TM has given us so far, city guards to protect and police the city, the army to wage war off screen and to lead expeditions for resources and trade, and military leaders to control the army. They just mentioned that they haven't got the military system fully polished yet so they don't want to reveal too much more.

I am assuming that the development team is continuing their previous philosophy of seconding the miliary aspects CotN to the needs of the City Building parts of the game.


The external (empire) part of the game SHOULD be significant. Egypt was an empire made up of many cities and foreign territory that they controlled, as well as further places that they had diplomatic and trade with (as well as enemies -- many being empires themselves).

I would hope that they would reflect this by having not only armies (and not just one army) but also garrisons (like at the southern border -- Nubia or Kush) and a navy. And not everything would be military either. Pharaoh could send out spies, trade missions and emissaries and diplomats (and administrators for his realm and territories).

'The City' is the capitol of the empire. Power eminates from it and it is the center of political intrigue. Riches flow into it. Influence is sought in it.
Connections to the outside have great efffect on it as much as it has on the outside.

If they are going to represent the player being 'Pharaoh', then his domain has to be greater than one city and his power/control will extend quite far.

I only hope that they give these aspects as much attention to make the city a believable capitol of a great empire.

[Keith]

I'm not sure how you select areas to dispatch troops to (off map) but from what I understand we never leave our city view and all distant combat is done off screen. So I don't think we'll be seeing too extensive.

I believe I recall that the army will be used for escorting trade missions and for expeiditions to seek out new resources and for defending any small outposts that get established.

[wodinoneeye]

I'm not sure how you select areas to dispatch troops to (off map) but from what I understand we never leave our city view and all distant combat is done off screen. So I don't think we'll be seeing too extensive.

I believe I recall that the army will be used for escorting trade missions and for expeiditions to seek out new resources and for defending any small outposts that get established.


There should be an empire map. I would like to see a tabletop or floor map before Pharaohs throne with markers (nice 3D...) showing the latest status
(periodicly being updated by incomming reports -- delayed by distance).

Some interface would then let Pharaoh issue orders appropriate to the resources he has deployed on the map.

If they dont expand this aspect and only have the 'canned' events like they had in the Pharaoh game, then this game is probably going to be a bust
-- just eyecandy 3D and just be like any other City Builder.

[Keith]

I don't agree that if they don't include all that that the game will be just like any other CB. The game is not supposed to be about empire building but citybuilding and social management. If you are expecting more you may be disappointed.

Better to expect less and be surprised. ;)

[NilePlanckton]

I'm quite happy with the development until now, even though most of the military aspect is still a doubt. I'm also satisfied with the city-building focus of the game, and if the developers at TM want to surprise us with some 'hidden' military news, well, then it's ok for me :D But if not... then it's ok too. I'd rather focus on CB, and the military aspect would be a "bonus" for me.

The only thing I hated is when I showed Pharaoh and other CB games to some friends (eagerly trying to make them get into CB games too), and after building a nice and good city, I'd say: "Well, I'm going to dispatch my troops to attack that city", the first thing they would say is: "Oh, will we fight with the troops on the enemy city?!!?! :eek: I want to see the walls, blah blah blah", then I would say: "no...", and they would nicely complain and abandon the idea, asking: "ah, then it's not fun..." Bah, annoying... :rolleyes:

[Cironir]

... the first thing they would say is: "Oh, will we fight with the troops on the enemy city?!!?! :eek: I want to see the walls, blah blah blah", then I would say: "no...", and they would nicely complain and abandon the idea, asking: "ah, then it's not fun..."

I think the reason is that people who spent hours of building and tweaking their city don't want to lose the fruits of their labour and effort in an attack (especially if it is random). It's difficult to build a city that's truly balanced and nifty, and if you lose that, it's frustrating. I believe that this is one of the reasons that building and combat are so difficult to get under one hat.

[Keith]

I'm quite happy with the development until now, even though most of the military aspect is still a doubt. I'm also satisfied with the city-building focus of the game, and if the developers at TM want to surprise us with some 'hidden' military news, well, then it's ok for me :D But if not... then it's ok too. I'd rather focus on CB, and the military aspect would be a "bonus" for me.

The only thing I hated is when I showed Pharaoh and other CB games to some friends (eagerly trying to make them get into CB games too), and after building a nice and good city, I'd say: "Well, I'm going to dispatch my troops to attack that city", the first thing they would say is: "Oh, will we fight with the troops on the enemy city?!!?! :eek: I want to see the walls, blah blah blah", then I would say: "no...", and they would nicely complain and abandon the idea, asking: "ah, then it's not fun..." Bah, annoying... :rolleyes:
Not everyone is cutout to be a citybuilder player. We are a select breed and you have to look long and hard for kindred spirit. Just keep looking.

I can tell you right now as it stands, CotN won't be much different than the previous games in terms of off-screen combat. TM has pretty much confirmed that all remote combat will be off-screen and that would generally mean you will not have control over the battle. But you never know since we still don't have all the finite details yet.

[wodinoneeye]

I don't agree that if they don't include all that that the game will be just like any other CB. The game is not supposed to be about empire building but citybuilding and social management. If you are expecting more you may be disappointed.

Better to expect less and be surprised. ;)


Without seeing what they will do for the 'empire' portion of the game, so far its just Pharaoh 3D. Maybe without some of the clumsy simulation mechanisms that Pharaoh had, but essentially the same.

I want something more than SimCity:AncientEgypt.

The same 'AI' mechanisms they use to make the city people act is applicable
to Empire level behavior.

[Keith]

Without seeing what they will do for the 'empire' portion of the game, so far its just Pharaoh 3D. Maybe without some of the clumsy simulation mechanisms that Pharaoh had, but essentially the same.

I want something more than SimCity:AncientEgypt.

The same 'AI' mechanisms they use to make the city people act is applicable
to Empire level behavior.
We all want something, even the developers. It's in their hands.

[Master Builder]

Frankly I saw the 2 "war fields" idea from the link farther up of your guards and the miltary. Having a opition of "Control Miltary" would slove whats been going on this either thread" For those who don't realy like warfare it would be Controled by Generals and Captains of the Guard. For those who do like warfare you get a special Moral Fighter unit Pharaoh (because some Pharaoh DID go witht their Armies into battle.) He would be the "General" on the field along with any others you sent. Also a Idea for the Army could be something like this.
Miltary: General(Pharaoh included)-> 2 Commanders -> 4 Sub commanders -> 8 Legion Commanders-> 16 Squadron Commanders -> Mass troops
This way your Pharaoh and generals would give orders to the 2 Commanders and their units, who in turn give coomaders to their 2 subs (each) and their troops (small amounts of elite troops of different levels as you go down the command chain) they control the Legion commanders (something like the normal troops) they in turn get their squads together into 1 massive army and prepare to kick butt or get butt kicked. But having A few elite troops for the higher levels and as moving down become more and more like normal troops.
Guard: Captain of the Guard(with his Elite guard)-> Barracks Commander(elite units) Squad Commanders(squads of 4 to 12 men) -> Tower/Guard post troops)
This allows for a tight defense versus theives, Raiders etc. And if nessary gives your true fighting force time to come back to home and get rid of major invasions.

Of course people might not want the massive armies but start at the bottom and move up. I mean for the start of miltary you might have Troops and a Squad Leader for guards Just the Tower/guard post men. As your city Improves you climb higher and higher until your at the top. However if you send say A general with a goodly sized force and he discovers a Chokepoint (Easy to defend area) He might ask to keep the force and to build a Fort there allowing you to keep that area safe from invasion, Until the enemy captures that fort. This way your army will decrease (he owns them now) and your defendablity increases.

In theroy it looks good but game wise it might work like

Your surrounded by the Nile to the X dir, Impassable mountains with 1 pass to the Different dir, Allies to the W dir, but enemies to the Last dir and beyond Mountains. Well the Nile protects you somewhat versus invasions (just need navy) By sending a general with troops to build a Fort in the mountains you can hold the enemy in that direction leaving only the enemies to the last direction to deal with until the fort is captured.

Feedback via this thread would be nice.

[Shortygroiwng]

while i like your ideas very much Master Builder, in terms of Game AI this could be a little tricky, i dont know where AI has progressed to in the hands of people like TM but in teh few games that i have made/co-made the AI would never have been able to take commands and give them effectivly, they could do it but they would probably end up just doing the same thing over and over, it would turn into a nice and simple basic strategy that was run everytime.

But the option to invade yourself or chose to have the AI do it is very good, but if you were to take teh size of the game (without that option) lets say 1.5-2 Gigs and add that option to it you would probably see 2.5-2.7 gigs... thats a lot more information

what would you city be doing while you were gone, what would happen if your city is invaded while you invade someone else? or the nile floods bigger than normal or your grain harvest is ruined by mice and you return home after a beautiful victory and notice something weird, ohh thats it theirs no one in your city they all left and went to palestine because they like the hebrews...

shorty

[Ineti]

Feedback via this thread would be nice.

Interesting ideas, and it would be neat to see them in a game someday. I'm pretty sure most of them are beyond the scope of CotN, though.

[Master Builder]

Eh just throwing the idea out there.
As far about the point of What happens to your city while your gone.
A type of "Overseer" keeps the town running as smoothly as he can enlisting aid if he needs to if an invasion takes place while your out the City Guard and whatever military you left will defend the city.

I was also wondering I know that even back then there were spies but what about sabetours? Weaken a spot in your enemies city set fire in a grain warehouse (very very dangerous **** there) and do all sorts of things to make that city vunerable to attack (bribe enemy miltary to assist you). But all that could also happen in your city thus you'd have to empoly Spies and informats in your own city to prevent this from happening. (just another idea)

Only reason i think Miltary is important in this case is that Egyptian Culture only successed because of its massive miltary.
Also last thing i don't want to see "Your Leader demands X Goods by X Date when you are the Leader" I always remember Pharaoh doing this You'd make the Pharaoh status and then bam pop-up "Pharaoh Demands goods" Annyoing as heck because he always ask for what you don't have at that time.

[Ineti]

Also last thing i don't want to see "Your Leader demands X Goods by X Date when you are the Leader" I always remember Pharaoh doing this You'd make the Pharaoh status and then bam pop-up "Pharaoh Demands goods" Annyoing as heck because he always ask for what you don't have at that time.

I hope some elements of that remain in CotN. As pharaoh, or the leader of a wealthy and prestigious city, the other cities that aren't so fortunate will be calling for assistance. If Pharaoh says send me XYZ, you would do so, since technically everything belonged to him anyway. :) Overseers that couldn't get the job done got replaced.

[Master Builder]

I wasn't meaning the whole system just the part where you were The Leader He who controlled all (in that case the Pharaoh) and you'd get a message saying Pharaoh demands goods. In other words your Demanding Goods from yourself that you didn't even possibly have.

[Azeem]

Hmm... Just a thought: how about an option to hire mercenary soldiers? Perhaps it could be an alternative to the old "Bribe" option. Rather than "bribing" enemy armies, you just hire mercenaries to do the fighting for you. Of course, how well the mercenaries fare and how many mercenaries will fight battles for you should depend on how much you're going to offer. ;)

But then again, it's probably too late to implement this...

[wodinoneeye]

I wasn't meaning the whole system just the part where you were The Leader He who controlled all (in that case the Pharaoh) and you'd get a message saying Pharaoh demands goods. In other words your Demanding Goods from yourself that you didn't even possibly have.


Pharaoh must of had hardcoded events (obviously missing logic to filter or modify the event wording once you became Pharaoh). Newer games use scripting for events which allows more customized logic to be added to game events.

I hope that this new game has a much wider variety of events (as well as
ones that match the current game situation closer). The game can have more replayability if each time you play thru the campaign sequence, different things happen (the 'suprise' factor that many successful games have).


Even better, if the script system is accessable to the players who can create
new scenarios that differ in events as well as for the map.

[Nero Would]

Pharaoh must of had hardcoded events (obviously missing logic to filter or modify the event wording once you became Pharaoh). Newer games use scripting for events which allows more customized logic to be added to game events.
In Zeus, events were more flexible. Some happened without being scripted. I'm not sure of the details, but I believe that if you make a city angry enough and your military is weak enough, the city will invade you. Also, if the designer had scripted an event where rival city "X" invades your city, but you were nice enough to "X" that they became your ally, then the invasion won't happen.

This makes things more complicated for the designer, who can't rely on the scripted events actually happening, and has to design the adventure to work logically no matter what combination of events occur.

Even better, if the script system is accessable to the players who can create new scenarios that differ in events as well as for the map.
All the city-builders (at least from Caesar 3) have allowed this in missions created with editor. So I think it's very likely that the CotN editor will allow it.

However, the previous city-builders did not allow the missions in the main "campaign" to be edited. I don't know if CotN will be different in that respect.

[BulMaster]

I loved when my city gets attacked and gets destroyed some parts, it adds some flavor and im no warmonger but still military had a great part in that era. Besides a well build city with a good city wall wont have probs sustaining attacks. It will be nice if the add catapults and all tha, i know i sound like an RTS fan but i am not, just want the military aspect to be not completly ignored. As for the army size, the logical thing it to make from the peasants as in workers, you can get as many as you want as long as you can pay them and have enough. Armies were created from the normal workforce if you make a huge one then who will fill the jobs of the city?

[Master Builder]

Yes some raiding is good. I mean if your city is doing well you'll see more invasions then a poorer town. Also its real Back then if you wanted something and the people who had it were enemies or didn't want to trade you fought a war. Then to the victor went the spoils. Was the only way empires could expand and grow to the sizes they did.

[Master Builder]

Before posting basically the same question so....^v^BUMP^v^
p.s Those are birds btw see ^v^ birds :cool: