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View Full Version : Sim City : Dictatorial Planned Economy Edition!


Josh
06-18-2007, 07:49 PM
I will start this post by saying I am a Tilted Mill/Impressions fan, I own everything from Lord of the Realm 2 up with the exception of some of the expansions. By comparison I am only a casual Sim City fan, I play it for a week or two roughly once a year.

From the standpoint of a fan of TM, and not someone who has been dreaming of sim city 5000 for years... This game has gone seriously, and most fundamentally awry in its most basic philosphy. And here is whats wrong "We aren't doing zoning, you are selecting which building you want, and putting it exactly where you want it to be, here we are going to put down a little antique shop..."

In Caesar, Pharaoh, etc, Emperor ruled all, everyone was more or less, by extension Emperor's slaves, sure we pay them, but we own all the industry, all the resources, all the production, and decide who gets fed and who gets what goods. In essence, the games modeled dictatorships with a planned economy. We paid our workers in crowns, denari, gold, or bread, But every citizen was employed by the state. The rare walker (the trader or merchant) was the single free man on the map.

What made sim city sim city, is not screenshots, its not the look. It was quite simply, that it modeled a roughly free market, businesses were free to flourish or fail, homes were constructed based on what the citizens desired or could afford, commercial properties were run by the owners to meet the needs of the population, We just created a proper environment, we kept the incubation chamber warm, so to speak, to let growth flourish in our petri dish of a city. We tweaked the taxes, zoned more regions, made travel more efficient, kept utilities flowing to the whole system, But we did not "put down a little antique shop"

Sim City - Soviet Blok Edition, just doesn't make sense, for this game to make sense we have to imagine a city where the mayor walks down the street and says "this area needs more antique stores!" he then pays for and orders the city building crews to start knocking down some space and breaking ground on "Glorious Leader's Antique Emporium" Glorious Leader then pays the staff of the building, and makes sure to either oppress or appease his population so they come to work, so glorious leader can take in the profits from each day's Victrola and Curio sales? Sim City? no, this is madness! This is Sim Despotism.

Are we really going to have a city where people start complaining that there aren't any good state owned ice cream stands, because we haven't built them one yet? That they are unemployed because we haven't built any Government controlled union steel mills for them to work at?

Fundamentally, the more I hear about this game, the more I think it is complete and absolute rubbish. Sim City lineage or not, it just doesn't sound like you are making a very good or believable game. What works for ancient Egypt just doesn't fly when "Simulating" (Or did everyone forget what the Sim part meant?) a modern day city.

Even if you made Sim City : Communist China Edition, You wouldn't see that kind of state level control. People in the lion's share of china set up their own stands, build their own factories, market their goods to America, etc. I highly doubt china is dictating the construction of "The People's Discount Antique Warehouse"

I don't remember the number, so let me pull one out of my butt, 500 buildings, and you want us to care, which store or boutique we build, or if we build ritzy upscale apartments or tenement buildings, When the old system did all this automatically, logically, and used it as the games feedback and achievement system?

I think you have a bomb on your hands for a few good reasons.
-Sim City fans are going to absolutely hate it.
-Anyone who casually liked to play sim city wont recognize it.
-Anyone who likes the idea will have played city life.
-Your loyal "City Builder Series" fans aren't on the Sim city forums for a reason. (we like the ancient world)
And the obvious reason this game was commissioned by EA....
-Fans of "The Sims", wont buy this either.

Sincerely, and I cannot repeat this enough... I don't want to put down a little antique shop!

Note: To any potential replies, My critiques comparing it to soviet russia, dictatorships, etc, is not in response to the system of oppression, indoctrination, and propaganda included in the name, but the basic principals of the economy, even a friendly happy "free" city.

Romaq
06-18-2007, 07:57 PM
I understand what you wrote, and appreciate it. That's much of my concern also. It was cool to see sims move in, set up shops and homes, or decide to move out because of what I do on a larger scale. I posted elsewhere concerning the thousands of single family dwellings and small shops all throughout the real life city I live in, Bellingham Washington.

We shall see what comes.

--Romaq

Ocram
06-18-2007, 08:09 PM
You're right! It is similar to City Life. My recomedations for drawing in the people you mention would be the following: have a high detail MySims (or whatever) like in SC4 RH, put in the ability to build ancient/historical cities, and make the buildings evolvable. That should draw in at least /10 of the people you mentioned.

Azeem
06-18-2007, 08:12 PM
To be fair, individual businesses even in the "free" world have to go through bureaucratic processes to get their shops approved by the city and architects and private citizens still must get city approval for what types of buildings they can build in certain areas.

Still, I'd much prefer if they handled zones the SimCity classic way.

dvchronique
06-18-2007, 08:12 PM
...
I think you have a bomb on your hands for a few good reasons.
-Sim City fans are going to absolutely hate it.
-Anyone who casually liked to play sim city wont recognize it.
-Anyone who likes the idea will have played city life.
-Your loyal "City Builder Series" fans aren't on the Sim city forums for a reason. (we like the ancient world)
And the obvious reason this game was commissioned by EA... ...
no need to say more!!

again, there's some good ideas in scS ... but the gameplay is not a SimCity's gameplay...

and that's why, in my heart, this game isn't the sequel of sc4...

dv

Josh
06-18-2007, 08:24 PM
Also, TM, Just so you take this the right way. I like you, I like the games you make, I look forward to playing them, So when a company I follow regularly, makes a sequel to a game I just happened to be playing a day before the announcement, and I don't think I will ever buy a copy... That worries me.

I agree, probably at the ire of sim city fanatics, Sim City 4000 was much too complex. I can tell the first thing you thought in the design process was "lets make this more intuitive and simpler" But in reality you took out the depth that made the game fun, and seemingly replaced it with a lot of micromanagement and busywork.

Replacing zoning with.... Giving your sims an Espresso Machine and a hot tub to meet your sims needs, oh wait thats the wrong game. A Coffee Shop and a Movie Theater to meet your citizen's desires.

Honestly, that many individually placed items sounds a hell of a lot like the buildings in our cities are really just the purchasable products in our sims houses which affect modifiers like intelligence and happiness. And really, If i wanted to play that game I would install my girlfriends copy of The Sims 2, but I don't want to play that game, and hiding that game in a larger scale doesn't change the fact that its not the game I want to play.

And "The Sims" players won't want to play this game because they don't care about cities and jobs and industries, they want to decorate a home, put pretty wallpaper and tiling on the floors, and make Jenny and Trish from class "Whoopie" Ewwwwww :rolleyes:

Azeem
06-18-2007, 08:27 PM
Personally, I think there should be two options - SimCity classic (NOT SimCity 2k - SimCity 4 style, mind you) style of zoning where zones are a fixed size but evolve depending on city conditions AND ploppable buildings. Some of us prefer zoning, but some of us actually do like plopping buildings. Keeping the options open to satisfy both sides would be nice.

dvchronique
06-18-2007, 08:56 PM
Personally, I think there should be two options - SimCity classic (NOT SimCity 2k - SimCity 4 style, mind you) style of zoning where zones are a fixed size but evolve depending on city conditions AND ploppable buildings. Some of us prefer zoning, but some of us actually do like plopping buildings. Keeping the options open to satisfy both sides would be nice.
well... this is part of all the SimCitys i know... :)

to be able to zone... and plop...

dv

Josh
06-18-2007, 09:18 PM
Yes, we would zone the private sector. And we would plop the buildings the government owns (Power plants, police stations, water treatment plants, etc) which would foster growth of the private sector.

Without that simple dynamic, of providing for the private sector, the whole game flies out the window, and it really can't be labeled a city simulation.

King Faticus
06-18-2007, 09:49 PM
Your loyal "City Builder Series" fans aren't on the Sim city forums for a reason. (we like the ancient world)
I find it laughable that you can say this, how can you represent everybody else on this site and beyond, the fact is the exact opposite atleast for the native forum members here and my friends in Real life, Everybody I know thinks this sounds interesting and are willing to atleast try it:rolleyes:

Imperial1
06-18-2007, 09:59 PM
Yes, we would zone the private sector. And we would plop the buildings the government owns (Power plants, police stations, water treatment plants, etc) which would foster growth of the private sector.

Without that simple dynamic, of providing for the private sector, the whole game flies out the window, and it really can't be labeled a city simulation.

RCI Zoning is the most fundamental aspect of SimCity since the first version. The name "SimCity" makes me expect that at least some version of RCI Zoning would be in the game where the game would decide when and where buildings would grow.

Josh
06-18-2007, 10:06 PM
There will be "residences, venues, and jobs" which is RCI just renamed. it looks like you could plop anything anywhere, just as you can put a potter right next to a household in a CB. Perhaps it has negetive consequences, but there seems to be no building "growth" at all, you just plop a large apartment skyscraper and call it a day, it didnt evolve from a small cluster of residential houses or anything, it doesnt need a certain amount of demand or property value, you just need to afford it and plop it.

King: No I dont speak for anyone, I was speaking in generalizations, but Generaly, it seems with tilted mill's fan base, if you threw a rock odds are you would hit a history buff, or atleast a regular watcher of the history channel and TLC. People like the strategy game, but a lot of people are captivated by the setting. Personaly I love rome, but others love greek and egyptian history too.

Azeem
06-18-2007, 10:17 PM
There will be "residences, venues, and jobs" which is RCI just renamed. it looks like you could plop anything anywhere, just as you can put a potter right next to a household in a CB. Perhaps it has negetive consequences, but there seems to be no building "growth" at all, you just plop a large apartment skyscraper and call it a day, it didnt evolve from a small cluster of residential houses or anything, it doesnt need a certain amount of demand or property value, you just need to afford it and plop it.


I'll admit that this aspect is one thing (aside from the curious absence of other transportation options) that I'm somewhat bothered about. I like plopping things in CotN, but in CotN, shops can decide what they sell and they take time to construct; also, townhouses evolved over time, provided that their households are prosperous enough.

Again, I'm hoping that this is only something that you "could" do as opposed to "only" do.

Or maybe one thing that could happen is if you place a designated type of structure (say the antique shop in question), the said structure might morph into something else if there just isn't a demand for it or if the city conditions might favor something else.

BTW, I actually would like to play a dictator in a game like this. Just a twisted fantasy of mine...especially after an extremely stressful day. ;)

majortom1981
06-18-2007, 11:42 PM
People are not getting why they are doing this.

Computers are not pwoerfull enoough to get a full city building game .

The true vision would be sim city 4 combined with the society aspects of sim city societies with a graphics update.

As we all knew sim city 4 had tons of problems even on high end machines.

This game is mainly for the society aspects of that. People need to understand that. There are many apsects to a city. Until machines are powerfull enough to handle a full on simulation then the games we get will handle chunks of that.

This new game is simply a different chunk of that then the other games where.

ManagerJosh
06-18-2007, 11:46 PM
I don't think the majority of us are calling for a full city builder game. In fact, probably only Big Blue or Blue Gene would be powerful enough to run a full city simulator.

I think the vast majority of us are in favor of continuing with the SimCity Tradition where RCI was the overall driving economy instead of social needs.


Josh, I'm giving you props. I feel you hit some of the key issues and concerns square on the head.

offspring_dude
06-19-2007, 03:12 AM
That's why the game should be called The Sims: Societies or something, modelled along the sims franchise... least that way you don't alienate one community of fans and fail to attract another.