The Official SimCity: Societies Request Thread

[schm0]

I looked through all the titles and all of the ideas that have been floating around are, well... floating around. How about we streamline the process? Makes a bit more sense, don't you think? So, without further introduction, let's get the suggestions started!

What would you like to see in SCS?

(Please post your comments and suggestions in a respectful and civil manner. By ignoring this simple rule, your ideas are more likely to be rejected outright.)

[Azeem]

Societies and ploppable zones a la SimCity classic are perfectly fine with me. In fact, those are the things that I've always wanted in a city builder so I'm satisfied with those aspects.

HOWEVER, there's one very big thing that I would definitely, extremely, really (did I mention "really"? ;) ) want in SCS: more transportation options!

The screenshots show nothing but roads (although I've noticed several types of roads), but the interviews and articles indicate that the development is still in a phase where more can be added. And so, for once, I'd like to echo the SC fans' chorus in calling for MORE transportation options. :D

At the very least, I'd like to see bus systems and rail systems.

Airports and seaports are definite musts for any large city.

[JuliaSet]

In the 3D mode, edges of the map have the inclusion of an apron. In Caesar 4, there were a few aprons to choose from. Some were made for small maps and other for the larger ones. Some were for desert, others for northern climates.

I hope there is an Apron Tool or (destructions for us to make them)for us to apply our own "dome" with images of local mountains, fantasy terrain, etc. blending into our 3D maps. http://www.citybuildingcontests.net/vbulletin/images/smilies/beret.gif

[Romaq]

I can go with the 'Apron Tool' concept. Mt. Baker is really several hours away, and while I did import the elevation data to construct it, the terrain certainly isn't 'local' other than sitting on the horizon being visible on clear days, and not so visible on others. And the San Juans effectively block a horizon view of the Pacific from Bellingham Bay, and those could also be ‘Apron Textures’ that are not really part of the elevation data.

I’d have to play around with it to see what really makes for a good screen shot and pleasant environment in which to make fun of the local Bellinghamsters.

--Romaq

[JuliaSet]

Am wondering about seasonal changes in SCS? Say if it did exist, that trees could drop leaves for winter, flower in spring,... fruit in summer, and have autumn colors,..

day dreaming more.... having the apron change to reflect it. maybe an overlay with degrees of transparency that changes, easing into new seasons. Mountains are easy, at least the big ones,... snow all year round, but how much of it for differing seasons?

[Romaq]

I would think getting consistant photos of Mt. Baker (or Mt. Ranier, or any other big horizon landmark) through the seaons is going to be a bear. It isn't so much the snowy peaks that change, but the hills off in that direction and the San Juans. And the closer you build towards the edge, the more fake it's going to look, like the backdrops of movie sets. It works so long as you don't look at the backdrop (the apron) too closely. Some screenshot examples would really help, if that's what they are using at all within SC5.

Now *I'm* in favor of simply working with ground texture, but that's terribly 'expensive' on memory. My SC4 'cities' data is around 250Meg of just terrain. And the vast bulk of the area is forest, mountain stream, and hills on a horizon that the Sims don't really perceive anyway. Thats alot of memory held down to be occupied by *nothing much*.

So we'll see what TM cranks out. I wouldn't mind if you had any pics to share of possible related Apron Tools though.

--Romaq

[Azeem]

"Corrupt Police Station"??? :D That's going to make my day. :D

[Hamburg]

There are to many things to list here. I thing in other Threads there are many opinions and wishes for the Sim City sucessor.

I cant aggree with azeem, becouse i do like growable buildings and to see how the city is gonna grow.

More transportations options and a more realistic look and gameplay is a "MUST" :D

[Sim1013]

I have posted this in my own thread, but I thought I should add it here since this is the official one.


In SimCity 4 the buildings sit on cement instead of grass and there are a lot of props e.g. statues, plazas, potted plants, fountains, food carts, etc. around the various buildings which makes the game look very beliveable. I hope that details such as those will be added.

Also, please don't forget the llamas!:p

[MxM]

My suggestion:

DROP SimCity from the name. PLEASE!!! I like the games produced by Tilted Mill, so I do not have any prejudice towards the company, but this is simply NOT SimCity game. It is as much SimCity as any other city building games, like City Life or Caesar 4.

[schm0]

Keep posting your suggestions here, as it will simplify the process and make it easier for TM to take them to heart. What do you want to see from SCS? What would you add? What do you want to tweak?

[Romaq]

Meh... I've been looking for threads that address my specific concerns, and where I don't find such a thread, I start one. But people posting stuff here would work too, I suppose.

--Romaq

[mouse]

TM always has beautification items like statues, gardens, ornamental trees, shrubs so that should be included:D Buildings that grow (also known as evolving) also are a feature of TM games;)
As for multi-player online I would suspect if EA allows it that it would be something like what's used for CaesarIV online;) Since I don't play online not so sure exactly how it works:rolleyes: But do know that the classic version of online play was used with Emperor which was to me as much fun as watching paint dry but then I'm an old foggy:D

[Techleo]

Id like to see natural industries. Mines, Logging camps, farms and fishing. Id love to have a small fishing village with a cannery. Id like to see a town with a bunch of log mills and huge swaths of forest being cut in the moutains. I want to see huge open pit mines.

To this end I need railways. Its not a if or a but or a maybe. I need trains. You run trains from the woods, mines and resources. You setup warehouses in the farmlands and pick up goods by train to bring to the city. I can live without highways since I can just lay two roads side by side to simulate that part.
I dont need bus stations. We can assume just like powerlines that some services are managed by the bueracrats.

[bosiydid]

TM always has beautification items like statues, gardens, ornamental trees, shrubs so that should be included:D Buildings that grow (also known as evolving) also are a feature of TM games;)
As for multi-player online I would suspect if EA allows it that it would be something like what's used for CaesarIV online;) Since I don't play online not so sure exactly how it works:rolleyes: But do know that the classic version of online play was used with Emperor which was to me as much fun as watching paint dry but then I'm an old foggy:D

I've made this point before but would like to reiterate it here. If buildings do evolve please do not let them devolve, and in effect create a teeter totter type of situation where things go up one level down one level. I don't mind it showing the building dilapidated etc. but please don't do what Caeser4 did and other similar city builders.

[Techleo]

I agree with Boy. If the city builds a brownstone it will appear in different states of repair depending on the condition of the city. Eventually it may be bulldozed to be replaces as something else. THe fact is the new something else is a entirely new property. So you plop a apartment and it stays a apartment tell you destroy it.

[citygirl]

I have never played a game with ploppable buildings, but it would be interesting to craft a city by placing the buildings just where I want them. But one thing that I really liked about zoning was seeing the buildings rise from the ground while they were under construction. If it were possible to plop buildings and watch them construct themselves (instead of plopping fully formed) that would make it seem more like I was building a city rather than placing Lego pieces.

[UnzippedSim77]

I have never played a game with ploppable buildings, but it would be interesting to craft a city by placing the buildings just where I want them. But one thing that I really liked about zoning was seeing the buildings rise from the ground while they were under construction. If it were possible to plop buildings and watch them construct themselves (instead of plopping fully formed) that would make it seem more like I was building a city rather than placing Lego pieces.

Actually I've just figured out my biggest gripe about what I've seen of the game from your post, and I hadn't realised it was... I abhor the plopping and want construction back - that was the most fun thing in SC4 when I saw something being constructed and I could hover over it to get a report of what building was being constructed. This is what I hoped was going to be incorporated and further developed (as Government buildings were ploppable rather than constructing) in the new SC iteration, but I hope it is considered for the next iteration which is to continue along the original SimCity lines...

[JuliaSet]

Wollongong, Australia Now we have two folks from there! Welcome Mate! It is not me, but there is another fan out there. Let's see if they will find you now!

Julia

[Romaq]

(snip) that was the most fun thing in SC4 when I saw something being constructed and I could hover over it to get a report of what building was being constructed.(snip)

As I travel around Bellingham with my wife, we see 'For Sale, Zonned hi-rise residential with ground floor commercial' or 'Zoned light Industrial' or 'For Sale or lease, build to suit' signs around town. We see homes along West Bakerview that are in abandonment with new buildings springing up everywhere around them. We watched new construction of a commercial strip along the drive home, and I swear it looked just like something out of SimCity 4 with the buildings going up.

Those sorts of moments seeing 'The Game' in real life are magical for me, and I really miss seeing those 'features' being a part of SC:S.

--Romaq

[John-SJ]

I often get that same feeling of magic, and for me it most often happens when driving through different areas of my home city, particularly through areas that have had some recent redevelopment work done.

I don't know if it will happen or not, but if the game is well done I think it might, but a similar thing might happen with SC:S. If they do a good job on the game and there is a real feeling of identification (as there is with SC) one might find themselves experiencing that same magic, but on a more intimate level perhaps. I can imagine myself walking (or driving too, maybe) and experiencing the "vibes" of a location and thinking, gee, just like in the SC:S game I'm playing right now.

We'll see! :)

[Aushun]

I don't think SC:S will replicate that exact same feeling as the one that SimCity 4 would've induced, but I hope, and I think it has the potential to, invoke different feelings that would nonethless be 'magical'. Fingers crossed :D

[schm0]

Perhaps by "magic" you mean buildings that appear literally out of nowhere.

Or maybe when you say "magic" you mean the mysterious power of the two-lane roads that carry any amount of possible traffic, buildings that have electricity without power plants, or faucets that deliver water without pipes.

Or if by "magic," you mean gingerbread houses, cryogenic prisons, clowns and tree-houses, then perhaps you'll receive just that. :)

[John-SJ]

Perhaps before getting snidely critical of the use of a word you should read the post from whence its use originated. Try post #21 in this thread.

See? It was a Simcity experience that prompted the use of the word.

[schm0]

Perhaps before getting snidely critical of the use of a word you should read the post from whence its use originated. Try post #21 in this thread.

See? It was a Simcity experience that prompted the use of the word.

I apologize for my tone, and you can read any and all of my posts and they are usually civil and behaved in nature... but when I hear people talking about finding the same "magic" they did in previous versions of SC in SCS, then I get a little agitated. :) I too, like Romaq, am a bit disheartened by the direction taken in this game, especially the lack of zoning. Please forgive my choice of words, but know that they come out of true frustration and are not just put up there to be rude. Since I started this thread, let's try and get it back on track, shall we?

So, what else would you like to see in SCS?

[JuliaSet]

/me puts on analysts hat. http://www.citybuildingcontests.net/vbulletin/images/smilies/surrender.gif

Sorry I'm still a noob at SC4. http://www.citybuildingcontests.net/vbulletin/images/smilies/baby.gifI don't yet have the same devotion (to the older versions) as many visitors to the TM forums, but I'm trying to understand the old game from a different angle until I have your same magical experience. SC4 does have a long learning ramp. http://www.citybuildingcontests.net/vbulletin/images/smilies/llama.gif

If there are any programmers out there, maybe they can guess and share with us just how much processing power might have been taken with the "zone" mechanics. If TM had to use 3D, where might they nip and tuck to make everything run on the most computers today? http://www.citybuildingcontests.net/vbulletin/images/smilies/Ordinateur13.gif If they had to remove something, I wonder what it could be? http://www.citybuildingcontests.net/vbulletin/images/smilies/masterpiece.gif

[Techleo]

I've been thinking really hard what kind of Society I want to design and what sort of structures Id want in the game. My ideal city is one which mixes HiTech with Eco-Friendly Farmers.

Imagine if you will a city surrounded by Organic farms and greenways. Each farm has a buffer around it to preserve the ecology of the region. The farms would be serviced from the main city rather then by spread out homesteads.
Each farmer will be given access to the city Farming Centre. The centre would consist of a massive packaging and sterilization centre for getting the materials read for shipping. There would be a Farm Co-Op Office which represents the entire region as a brand name basically. You can approach buyers with a larger more organized front. The city farm tax will run the services. Basically the city is a Farmer State.

So basically Id love to see High Tech Eco-Friendly structures. With Solar Panels, Windmills, Geothermal Power Plants as the energy sources and perhaps even methane processing. Waste disposal will be handled by recycling and downcycling. Transportation would be handled by electric cars.

I know its idealistic but hey, I did build such a city in Simcity 4:)

[MarkDuffy]

...buildings that have electricity without power plants...

What makes you say this, Schm0? Haven't you seen the screenshots?

Have you seen the image of the interface on pg 61 of GFW magazine July 2007? What IS that left-most of the five larger buttons to the left of the six slightly smaller Societal Energy buttons?

It has a lightening bolt above and a meter below pointing to 1/4. Any clue what THAT might be?

Again, cuz I have posted it before, what are those suspicious buildings to the upper right in this image? Have you also seen the two possible wind power images?

[King Faticus]

I think I saw them placing windmill poweplants in one of the movies.. .maybe power wasn't removed just power lines or something like that:/

[MarkDuffy]

I think I saw them placing windmill poweplants in one of the movies.. .maybe power wasn't removed just power lines or something like that:/

The "diehard" SC4 fans are VERY lucky I only have dialup, King. Also that I don't know how to capture images from videos anyway.

They love to post gingerbread houses & candy cane options to divert attention from the rest of the game.

It doesn't fool me one bit. So many bogus assumptions with not a shred of evidence. TM has a LOT more beans to spill & they will come in time. :)

EDIT: Wind power? First is obvious, but the second is waaay in the upper left-center edge by the river.

PS ~ To the left of the windmills in image #2 is what looks like an airport control tower, but THAT is a VERY VERY VERY wild guess.

[King Faticus]

what is also funny is how after something they wanted is revealed to actually be in the game (modding for example) it is almost completely ignored and they whine about the candy that they do not have to build:rolleyes:

or even better... they can mod out:p

[John-SJ]

Okay.

One thing I would like to see in SC:S is random maps. I remember one of the previous SC versions had this, I would like to see its return. And to complement the random map generator a set of god mode terraforming tools.

[Romaq]

Yes. It was really quite painful to see I had to start with flat land or flat seawater, and then my in-game client work was limited by the size of 'cities' that were not configurable from within the client.

But please don't exclude 'real land' imports such as from DEM, in fact I'd really rather see 'raw DEM' import from USGS and other sources. And the ability to import World Machine maps would be great too. World Machine is much more likely to create realistic fantasy landscapes than the amount of effort you would want to put into the SC:S client.

--Romaq

[John-SJ]

Importing USGS or some similar format maps directly into the game is a brilliant idea!

That would be awesome!

(I wonder why no one has developed an off-line tool to do this for SC4 already?)

[sinjun]

What i think would be interesting to see is probaby something of an idea for an expasion pack. But it'd be nice to go back and forth in time and reality to make cities. Imagine diffrent plants, space stations, fantasy realms (in any time zone). the far future of the game is really the expansion pack idea.

[schm0]

The "diehard" SC4 fans are VERY lucky I only have dialup, King. Also that I don't know how to capture images from videos anyway.

They love to post gingerbread houses & candy cane options to divert attention from the rest of the game.

I've spoken on many occasions about all the other things I'd like to see in the game: transportation network options, zoning, utility options, and terraforming, to name a few. The lack of these things, some of which have been confirmed, is cause for concern. Gingerbread houses and candy cane lights are merely icing on the cake. (Pardon the pun.)


It doesn't fool me one bit. So many bogus assumptions with not a shred of evidence. TM has a LOT more beans to spill & they will come in time. :)

EDIT: Wind power? First is obvious, but the second is waaay in the upper left-center edge by the river.

PS ~ To the left of the windmills in image #2 is what looks like an airport control tower, but THAT is a VERY VERY VERY wild guess.

I didn't have my magnifying glass when I looked at those pictures. Sorry about that. :) Will I have to pursue the "Knowledge" route to get my environmental treehouse Sims to earn a windmill, or will they be an option from the start?

The fact that I even have to ask (they were available from the beginning in SC4) is troublesome, indeed. It brings up another gameplay aspect that isn't a "bogus assumption with not a shred of evidence." Why can't I just build what I want to build? Why do I have to unlock 85% of the buildings in the game? In SC4, the only thing you had to unlock was 25 or so "rewards" that you earned by advancing through the game and reaching certain population marks, etc. Most of the buildings were available off the bat, but they were only built when the required growth stage was reached.

what is also funny is how after something they wanted is revealed to actually be in the game (modding for example) it is almost completely ignored and they whine about the candy that they do not have to build:rolleyes:

or even better... they can mod out:p

It will be a long time before we can figure out if we can mod out the core element of the game: social energies. The lack of zoning and these new gameplay elements are two things we'd like to add/mod/delete. They haven't/won't release the source code for SC4 for us to mod, and I expect similar hurdles for SCS.

The reason "we whine" is the fact that the realism in SC has been replaced by cryogenic prisons, gingerbread houses, zombies and clown schools. The fact that we don't have to build it doesn't negate the fact that they reside in the game in the first place. There is plenty of fantasy-based custom content for SC4 that I will never use or download because of it's theme and nature, but that's what its for: to satisfy the very small niche of people who would want to put a gingerbread house in SC.

On a seperate note, I feel we have every right (as TM has stated themselves) to have serious concerns and/or disagreements with the content or direction of this game. While we discuss these matters daily, TM is putting final touches on the game that will eventually hit store shelves in November. I could go through analogy after analogy ad naseum to try and persuade you to understand our concerns, but if our opinions are constantly dismissed as "rants" or "whining" then there truly is no need for dialogue.

[MarkDuffy]

I've spoken on many occasions about all the other things I'd like to see in the game: transportation network options, zoning, utility options, and terraforming, to name a few.

You sound like a broken record, true. Perhaps if you give your needle a whack, the needle will progress instead of being stuck in the past?

The lack of these things, some of which have been confirmed, is cause for concern.

The only thing confirmed is that zoning will be different & under that control of the player.

Gingerbread houses and candy cane lights are merely icing on the cake. (Pardon the pun.)

I'll be sure to make my first city images on this forum include Gingerbread Houses. Make sure you come back to see them.

I didn't have my magnifying glass when I looked at those pictures. Sorry about that. :)

Duh

Will I have to pursue the "Knowledge" route to get my environmental treehouse Sims to earn a windmill

I certainly hope so.

, or will they be an option from the start? The fact that I even have to ask (they were available from the beginning in SC4) is troublesome, indeed. It brings up another gameplay aspect that isn't a "bogus assumption with not a shred of evidence." Why can't I just build what I want to build? Why do I have to unlock 85% of the buildings in the game? In SC4, the only thing you had to unlock was 25 or so "rewards" that you earned by advancing through the game and reaching certain population marks, etc. Most of the buildings were available off the bat, but they were only built when the required growth stage was reached.

Cry me a river. I absolutely love locked thingies. I like my games to be adventures. Start out with less & get more as my gameplay evolves. After you unlock, they stay unlocked for the next city.

It will be a long time before we can figure out if we can mod out the core element of the game: social energies.

I fail to understand why you would want to. SCS is a different kind of SimCity.

The lack of zoning and these new gameplay elements are two things we'd like to add/mod/delete.

Your "we" is getting smaller every day.

They haven't/won't release the source code for SC4 for us to mod, and I expect similar hurdles for SCS.

Concur

The reason "we whine" is the fact that the realism in SC has been replaced by cryogenic prisons, gingerbread houses, zombies and clown schools.

Nonsense

The fact that we don't have to build it doesn't negate the fact that they reside in the game in the first place.

LMAO ~ Soooo, your major beef is that others willl love the game.

Pitiful

There is plenty of fantasy-based custom content for SC4 that I will never use or download because of it's theme and nature, but that's what its for: to satisfy the very small niche of people who would want to put a gingerbread house in SC.

You just walked all over your "message" immediately above. Chuckle.

On a seperate note, I feel we have every right (as TM has stated themselves) to have serious concerns and/or disagreements with the content or direction of this game. While we discuss these matters daily, TM is putting final touches on the game that will eventually hit store shelves in November.

Yes, final touches. Along with secret beanz not yet spilled, about major features already there. Also the rest of the 350 buildings not yet done. Especially the clickable buildings that do stuff.

(Wonders if a Stock Market will allow us to do some investing. Play blackjack at the Casino.)

I could go through analogy after analogy ad naseum to try and persuade you to understand our concerns, but if our opinions are constantly dismissed as "rants" or "whining" then there truly is no need for dialogue.

Actually, I have put most of "you" on scroll on by. You don't want to help, Schm0. You just want to cry about & throw rocks at a new, fresh & different game that is not a SC4 clone.

You know what else? We are making converts & you are losing the war. More every day.

SimCity Societies will be an Excellent new game!

Good night & good luck

[Jeff Fiske]

Civil Please.

[King Faticus]

I could go through analogy after analogy ad naseum to try and persuade you to understand our concerns, but if our opinions are constantly dismissed as "rants" or "whining" then there truly is no need for dialogue.
I already understand your concerns and can see things from your side clearly but so far I have only seen one or two posts with any concern about the community that was already here before this happened.. can anybody see our side of things, or even what it seems like to us? it seems one sided that we have to understand you but you don't have to try to understand us.
Also it seems like a broken record.. it really does.. and I don't know about the simcity "fans" but normal people get tired of old soap operas:(

No Im not directing this at you Schm0 Im just saying in general this is what it seems like to us... we cannot even enjoy our community anymore because a couple of trolls have found they quite enjoy the game.. not SCS.. but posting insults here and persoanlly attacking members of this forum:mad:

so Im sorry if it seems like you are given the cold shoulder by us
but most people aren't going to be as welcoming as they were in the past (welcome to our family ect) because afew people ruined every simcity fan's credibility by trolling:(

I hope this didn't come across as insulting because the is not my intention...

[Romaq]

Importing USGS or some similar format maps directly into the game is a brilliant idea!

That would be awesome!

(I wonder why no one has developed an off-line tool to do this for SC4 already?)

The problem with 'direct' imports of DEM data to SC4 is tied to several issues:

1) SC4 requires maps fit the formula (N*64)+1 (the size of 'N' small city tiles) where DEM sizes are aribitrary.

2) SC4 'units' (the size of an in-game tile) are at 16 meters. DEM data is at 10m, 30m, 1/3 arc second (close but not quite 10m), 1 arc second (close but not quote 30m), 10 arc seconds, and so on.

3) DEM images will often have 'holes', units flagged as having 'no data'. This is true of the Canadian Border, since USGS DEMs simply won't provide that info.

4) Usually DEM data stops at water surfaces, unless you use Bathymetry which provides underwater detail, but at a lower resolution. Merging the two sets of data requires software like MicroDEM, and it is non-trivial, especially when the two data sets are using different projections or different ellipsoid.

That said, I've done it several times. It calls for a certain amount of artistry to get everything I want into MicroDEM, including making sure there are no seams in map coverage that will show up as bottomless pits or mountainous spikes. I then use a program in LISP to convert the proprietary MicroDEM file into a 16 bits per channel PGM image, then software to convert that into 16 bpc, rotate and scale, then I use an OLD version of CinePaint to crop the image, then SC4 Mapper to pull the image into SC4.

If SC:S scaled terrain at 10m/ unit, that would help a great deal since that throws away the scaling issue. If map sizes were also arbitrary instead of the (N*64)+1 format, that would also make life much more simple on the import. Ideally, someone at TM would be kind enough to make an 'unsupported Power Tool' that happens to read MicroDEM format and other DEM format, then push the data into SC:S with minimal issues. I look forward to the point where the NDA can be lifted and we can have open dialog on the matter, but by then things like terrain scale will be frozen if indeed it isn't already.

--Romaq

[Kinneas]

I enjoyed GOD MODE and all the terraforming and construction tools in SIMS4. I felt that was a coup.

I miss the hydro plants and Arcos from previous versions.

I like pipes and power lines, construction and buildings that evolve and devolve.

I enjoyed having expansions for SC2K like: Streets of SIM City that allowed a whole new way to see your cities and troubleshoot problems you just can't see or understand from the air. Not to mention the machine guns, missiles, armor, radio stations and hover wheels. Woo.

Flying in your cities via SIM Copter.

I loved building connecting cities and the dynamics between them and hope online play brings more of that.

SIMnation was awesome but the interface and speed of it all killed it.

The Cameras and Journal options were a coup for SIMnation.

I LOVED someone's idea for SPEED LIMITS! WOW. What an idea! YAHOO!

I loved: Toll Booths/roads, Air scrubbers.

I love GREEN buildings and cities and GREEN ideas.

idea: Tax relief for Hybrid Cars, biofuels,
idea: Ocean 'Wave' power plants
ploppable: CERN (antimatter power)

as always: The music : Le sigh : I would like more SIMish 'radio stations'.
---
My big thing is that after sc2k it seems there was an opportunity to keep doing expansions like: Streets, Tower, Farm, Golf, SIMS and incorporate them all into SIMCITY...with SIMCITY as the 'master core'.

This concept was lost and there have never been the kids of expansions for SIMCity the SIMS (6+ expansions) and the SIMS2 (8-10 expansions so far) have enjoyed.
---

I am going to get 'Societies' and I think it IS in a lot of way a GREAT step in the right direction...but too much of it (at this time) seems like a step in the wrong direction.
--
The 'societies' could have been expansions for SIMCITY.

[schm0]

::sigh::

I have decided that I have acheived what I originally came on these forums to do. I have stated my opinions, and they have been heard and recorded for posterity. Unfortunately, some of my posts have been met with hostility, sarcasm or complete disregard. It is mainly for this reason that I am no longer posting to this site.

I wish TM and its staff the best of luck with this game. Thank you very much for your continued dialogue and open mind, especially concerning the SC community. I honestly hope that this game succeeds in providing those who would buy it with a fun and long-lasting experience. I'll be watching the news posted at Simtropolis with interest.

To those of you on these forums who have treated me with civility and listened and responded politely to what I had to say, I offer my sincere thanks. The people on this forum have been, for the most part, friendly and welcoming. That is a good sign for this community and for TM.

In the end, this is just a game. And games were meant to have fun. I can only help that this early discussion contributes to the larger framework for the future gaming community of SCS. There are those of us who might not agree with the direction of this game, but there is a lot to be excited about. For the new player, this game could provide a new SC gaming opportunity where before, none existed. For the SC vet, this game might provide an interesting new take on the franchise series. And for the disgruntled fan, there is always the possibility of SC5.

And, who knows? I might just pick up a copy.

Sincerely,

schm0

[Hoplite]

I'm sorry that you feel this way, as it is sadly understandable the way the forums have been since the announcement. Thankyou for your kind wishes.
The best to you wherever you go and farewell.

[MarkDuffy]

Ya know, sometimes ya can't see the forest for the trees... :o

In my second screenshot post #31 (http://www.tiltedmill.com/forums/showpost.php?p=162037&postcount=31), I mentioned seeing what looks like an airport control tower.

Looking at it again, it appears to be the same building in the lower part of the same screenshot. Here it is obvious that it is a heliport. I see no other use for that building, except transportation.

From the Official Site "About SCS (http://simcity.ea.com/about.php), it mentions "Each structure reflects its name and nature, and many offer a click-on action for you to play upon!"

Wouldn't it be kewl if we could click on the Heliport & take a ride around our city?

EDIT: Requesting some really nasty military or futuristic choppers to strafe & bomb our people & buildings would probably be too much to ask, eh? <evil grin>

[Sim Nation]

It would be very un cool if we cant jump in the chopper and take it for a spin ,so seeing the heli pad is no big deal as SC4 does this already .Now watching one of the mimes drop the chopper with a STA rocket launcher would be cool ,obtw how many mimes does it take to kill a men in black ?.
________
Forty-nine (http://www.ford-wiki.com/wiki/Ford_Forty-Nine)

[MarkDuffy]

It would be very un cool if we cant jump in the chopper and take it for a spin ,so seeing the heli pad is no big deal as SC4 does this already.

Of course you mean Rush Hour Expansion, Sim Nation. I do not believe you could do that in SC4.

Let's be fair...

[Azeem]

One thing that's been asked of in previous games is the ability to "possess" an individual sim and actually walk through the city. :D

Of course you mean Rush Hour Expansion, Sim Nation. I do not believe you could do that in SC4.

Let's be fair...

Yep, the vehicles thing was expansion content. Vanilla SC4 alone was quite limited.

[Kinneas]

Wouldn't it be kewl if we could click on the Heliport & take a ride around our city?

EDIT: Requesting some really nasty military or futuristic choppers to strafe & bomb our people & buildings would probably be too much to ask, eh? <evil grin>

In 'U-Drive It' mode or in first-person view, cockpit view (SIM Copter/ Streets of SIMCITY)?

[Romaq]

In 'U-Drive It' mode or in first-person view, cockpit view (SIM Copter/ Streets of SIMCITY)?

SC4 simply didn't have the real 3D information in the display models to present a first-person view. SC:S clearly has all the 3D model info to present whatever the 'camera view' happens to pick up.

I don't know the difficulties in presenting multiple camera views, but it *should* be trivial to have multiple 'picture in picture' views at the same time -at render time-, even if not in 'realtime'.

Now *THAT* would be something for a CJ is to have a first person view and an over the shoulder and from behind 'u-drive-it' view recorded at the same time, even if you only see one. Then you tell SC:S to 'render' both videos of what you just did along with time-sync info. SC:S might have to crunch at it, but since the game has all the elements of what events occured, it can rerender in 'supa-fine' detail both movies. You may then use your movie editor to splice, picture-in-picture, cut-scene and otherwise make a movie that you may *then* post on your website, and not have to do multiple runs of the same 'take'. This would be particularly important where you have, for example, a 'news copter' recording a disaster. You don't want to have to recreate the disaster in detail. But you could have multiple camera tracks recording for later video edits.

All that to say, why worry about 'first person view' vs. 'U-Drive-It' view when you could easily have both and at the same time (even if you can't 'see' them at the same time)?

--Romaq

[Kinneas]

SC4 simply didn't have the real 3D information in the display models to present a first-person view. SC:S clearly has all the 3D model info to present whatever the 'camera view' happens to pick up.

I don't know the difficulties in presenting multiple camera views, but it *should* be trivial to have multiple 'picture in picture' views at the same time -at render time-, even if not in 'realtime'.

Now *THAT* would be something for a CJ is to have a first person view and an over the shoulder and from behind 'u-drive-it' view recorded at the same time, even if you only see one. Then you tell SC:S to 'render' both videos of what you just did along with time-sync info. SC:S might have to crunch at it, but since the game has all the elements of what events occured, it can rerender in 'supa-fine' detail both movies. You may then use your movie editor to splice, picture-in-picture, cut-scene and otherwise make a movie that you may *then* post on your website, and not have to do multiple runs of the same 'take'. This would be particularly important where you have, for example, a 'news copter' recording a disaster. You don't want to have to recreate the disaster in detail. But you could have multiple camera tracks recording for later video edits.

All that to say, why worry about 'first person view' vs. 'U-Drive-It' view when you could easily have both and at the same time (even if you can't 'see' them at the same time)?

--Romaq

I felt 'U-Drive it' was a failure for SIMCITY and the element I liked least about SC4.

After experiencing Streets of SIMCITY and SIM Copter, 'U-Drive It' was not even enjoyable as a substitute. (Has anyone here played 'Streets of SIMCITY or SIM Copter? ).

While capturing movies and sharing movies sounds like incredible fun...it also is no substitute for 'going inside'.

I almost wish they would just break out the SC2k engine and overhaul it with the elements that made SC4 so incredible.

[John-SJ]

I never played Streets, but I did play SimCoptor. It was quite enjoyable flying around the cities I created, but I thought the missions were a little repetitive after awhile. If Streets of SimCity allowed you to drive in your own cities I wish I had gotten it. A street level view would be cool!

Hehe! I have to admit, I did fly my SimCoptor between skyscrapers now and then. That was a blast!

edit: I wonder if it is asking too much for a Streets of SimCity reprise in SC:S?

[Poetic]

There's a lot of "official" request threads isn't there :confused: I know I've replied to two already (or at least one). Anyway, as I've said before, a building editor is a must. I know there will be "creation tools," so I'm sure it'll be included. I just hope we'll be able to add new buildings and not just replace existing ones (ala SC3000 Unlimited style).

Also, what's with all the four laners :eek: . We gotta have a few different roads. I know there is some kind of cobble stone & dirt options, which is great, but there also needs to be a two lane road put in.

[UnzippedSim77]

OK changing topic in this request thread: the flora!!! I think the trees and shrubbery need to be more diverse, as SC4 catered specifically to European and American flora, while we in Australia felt robbed of our 'symbolic' flora to enhance the antipodean aspect of our cities. Eucalypts and such should be an option in the flora of a region, and even some sparce desert-style scrub would be a boon! Anyway, these are just 'decorational' elements, but I think they add to the overall effect of creating plausible cities, particularly based on local geography.

[Azeem]

Regional flora would be great. :D Also, there could be some climate differences from region to region that can affect the likelihood of certain disasters (similar to the way it was handled in Caesar IV where desert regions had sandstorms and northern regions had blizzards).

[Kinneas]

*** is in the details.

I do not think I could ever get enough nature.

Nature expansions or SIM EARTH series expansions I would buy without a second thought. No matter how many packs they released.

More animals too. I would buy animal expansions till the cows came home.

I loved folks 'fishing village' ideas. More sea-life.

An Audubon Society collection???

The conflict between wild animals and human encroachers could be a 'societies' feature/expansion.

Finding a balance or trying to work more wildlife back into any city could be interesting.

The animals did not seem to have much impact in SC4. If they did in some way...I missed it.

I felt trees and plant life did not do enough to really combat polution even when you interspersed it well and over heavy between industries. or around landfill. SC2k and 3K trees 'seemed' to do more vs. polution.

I found it very hard not to always go online to get some futuretech air cleaners that I believe will be coming in the real world soon along with air cleaning skyscrapers (so it did not feel like 'cheating').

[Adagio]

What the game needs is different difficulty levels, where each level can influence the game. Here's a few ideas on what could be done:

VERY EASY:
The same as EASY
Zoning is free
Building costs has been halved

EASY:
Pipes and powerlines are out of the game
Taxes can go higher, before people start complaining about taxes
Sims don't mind spending hours to get to work
You start with a lot of money

MEDIUM:
Powerlines are in the game. Pipes works the same way as powerlines, where you only need to build them when you want water to go to an area far away

HARD:
Pipes and powerlines works as in SC4
Sims hates taxes, make sure the taxpayers money is spent on what they want, otherwise they'll leave the city, if the taxes are too high
Sims don't want to spend much time getting to and from work, 30 minutes tops
You start with a loan

VERY HARD:
Same as HARD
Buildings costs 50% more per month

CUSTOM:
Where you can...uhmmm... customize the difficulty ;)


This way the game could still be easy enough for 5 years olds to get a city with millions of sims within a few hours and make it difficult enough for SimCity veterans (making it hard for them to make a city with 50,000 sims)

[John-SJ]

I think it is fair to say that the majority of games have some sort of difficulty level. It is therefore probably likely that SC:S will as well.

I think it highly unlikely though that the difficulty level will be based on the level of requirement for power lines and water pipes.

I accept taht many people love that SC4 requires the player to supply water and power to their sims, but to be perfectly honest, I never understood why this was a big deal. It always seemed to me that laying pipes was one of the areas of drudgery that could be done away with without decreasing gameplay value at all.

I am happy that pipes will not be returning to SC:S

[panikattak]

John, for people like you who don't like the water grid, it's very easy to get rid of the need for pipes in SC4. There are several mods that deal with that, and one that totally removes the need for water (I don't use these, as I like to lay my pipes). It would have been nice if there was an option to shut that off in SC4, but there wasn't other than using a mod.

And as to why people like them, is it adds another level to the game. It's something an actual mayor might have to deal with, and yes, sometimes it sucks. But the reward is in understanding, planning, and in the end, creating a successful system. Some people don't like that, some do. I'm sure that would have been an issue in SC5 and probably would have been addressed that way.

[Poetic]

There are several mods that deal with that, and one that totally removes the need for water (I don't use these, as I like to lay my pipes).

Didn't know that. Even after all of these years of being on Simtropolis there are still LOTS of mods out there that I haven't heard of before :D That, in my opinion, is what made SC4 such a great game - plugins. It's amazing seeing some of the stuff you can alter in that game. I definitely hope SCS will have that...

As for flora - I agree, the more flora the better. One of the good things about City Life, that most people don't mention, is the great looking water and diverse trees (I believe they even had seasonal trees - something you can also have in SC4 w/ mods).

[Adagio]

I think it is fair to say that the majority of games have some sort of difficulty level. It is therefore probably likely that SC:S will as well.


It might, but it'll probably just be something like in SimCity 4, where it just defines the amount of money you start with


I think it highly unlikely though that the difficulty level will be based on the level of requirement for power lines and water pipes.


As we already know that power lines and water pipes are out of the game, we wont see it
But why didn't they think of something like that? By making things optional they can make a better game for everybody. Those who doesn't like to lay down pipes doesn't have to, while those who likes it gets to do it. Should be simple to implement


I accept taht many people love that SC4 requires the player to supply water and power to their sims, but to be perfectly honest, I never understood why this was a big deal. It always seemed to me that laying pipes was one of the areas of drudgery that could be done away with without decreasing gameplay value at all.

I am happy that pipes will not be returning to SC:S

I'm one of the few hardcore SimCity fans who wont mind seeing it gone, but then I didn't mind it being there either. So for me it wouldn't make a difference if that option was there. Sometimes I like to lay down pipes because it gives me some possibilities like if there's an area I don't want to waste water on, but then there are times when the whole city should have water and I have to spend a lot of time laying down pipes

[John-SJ]

Adagio quizes:

"As we already know that power lines and water pipes are out of the game, we wont see it. But why didn't they think of something like that? "

As far as I know, we don't know what options will/won't be in the game.

Unless you have an inside source, neither one of can know whether they did or didn't think of something like that, or something completely differnt.

[David Beebe]

Jeff Fiske (Design Director)
Power is also needed in your cities, as seen in the more recent videos.

link here (http://www.tiltedmill.com/forums/showpost.php?p=161657&postcount=24)

People, please feel free to re-vist some of your assumptions.

[Adagio]

Jeff Fiske (Design Director)
Power is also needed in your cities, as seen in the more recent videos

I know power is needed, I've also seen powerplants in screenshots


Unless you have an inside source, neither one of can know whether they did or didn't think of something like that, or something completely differnt.

...but I've also read in a preview somewhere that power LINES and water PIPES wont be in the game. Don't remember where though, but I found another preview where it's mentioned:

http://www.gamedaily.com/simcity-societies/pc/game-previews/6360/

"Both power and water pipes will be removed, leaving players with only road design and traffic to manage"

So if that preview is right, then there wont be an option to switch power lines and water pipes on/off
But of course previews are not always right, but I've seen this mentioned in several previews now

[John-SJ]

Ah, my mistake then, I must have misread what you said. I thought you were suggesting that they had not included anything that would change the difficulty level of the game rather than suggesting that the only things that can change the difficulty are the requirements for power and water.

I stand corrected.

[Kinneas]

I I never understood why this was a big deal. It always seemed to me that laying pipes was one of the areas of drudgery that could be done away with without decreasing gameplay value at all.

I am happy that pipes will not be returning to SC:S

Will pipe laying (and connecting to power) be replaced for something else (e.g. Utility 'faucet' on zones/lots: to turn on and off to allow or not allow water to be connected to utilities. )??

Will water still play an important role in the development and control of societies and can you still determine who has it and who does not?
--
I liked the idea that residential might have windmills.

Can a residential have no power at all without suffering a flashing lightning bolt?

[Romaq]

John, for people like you who don't like the water grid, it's very easy to get rid of the need for pipes in SC4. (snip)

I find the pipes quite useful for making an 8x8 grid to plot where things go. Just lay down water pipes 8x8, go into data mode, and you now have an 8x8 grid for reference. Of course, I would have preferred another method was available (TM: HINT HINT!) but at least I've found a use for the pipes.

--Romaq

[MarkDuffy]

The Yellow Brick Roads are a bit too bright for me. I hope they are either toned down in brightness, or that I don't have to build them.

< Nevermind that I use BRIGHT WHITE Plaza Tiled roads in COTN all the time! ;) :rolleyes: ;) >

Disclaimer: Could have just been the video on a different computer. :o

[Azeem]

The roads didn't seem to bright for me. Could be a different in monitor settings.

On the water pipes issue, I'm also glad they're gone. They were more of an annoyance than fun. I've sometimes used the no-water cheat in SC4 just because I didn't want to deal with pipe layouts.

Perhaps water can simply be supplied with the presence of a water pumping facility, which could have a citywide radius but still have its own maximum production capacity (thus requiring you to build more when the need arises).

[John-SJ]

Or even, (didn't SC2000 or 3000 do this?) have water pumps and or towers or treatment plants or whatever have a radius of effect similar to a school or hospital. Everyone that needs water within the radius gets it unless there is a greater need than capacity, then you need to build a new facility just like you might build schools now with overlapping circles if the need is high enough.

[Azeem]

SC4 did this with water towers (although you can connect them with the main piping network to supply the rest of town). From SC2k to SC3k, pipe layouts were still a necessary evil.

Pumps and towers with areas-of-effect sounds more interesting. It'd require more strategic placements of things. :)

[John-SJ]

Agreed, Azeem!

As things are now I find education and helathcare planning much more enjoyable in SC4 than water planning.

For water I find a good place for all present and future water facilities and then as quickly and painlessly as possible draw the pipes I need to supply water. There is no planning needed at all and no strategy.

With hospitals (and education buildings) it is much different. With a limited radius and limited capacity it makes sense to place them strategically, and if they fit in with the city structure, so much the better. As populations ebb and flow building new facilities is always needed now and then and it can be a challenge keeping a decent network together without having to plop hospitals in the middle of a residential area.

To me, this is fun and thought provoking. Water pump and pipe placement is tedious and boring. (to me)

[King Faticus]

I agree with you John-SJ

I wondered why people took the removal so seriously... they really didn't add anything to the game except an annoying process that was very simple and added no challenge except the maintenance you paid on them.

[Rnett]

It added more micromanagment that I could do without.

[UnzippedSim77]

Coming from a different perspective, being in Australia and in a naturally arid nation, I find that the level of management of the water levels wasn't quite enough - I wanted to put water restrictions on my industries and big businesses to ensure they didn't take it away from the residential sector, in a way to replicate the drought conditions we face as a nation in our six year cylces. (After six years, we get torrential rainfall that replenishes the dams and causes floods). These factors would be awesome to implement in the game, maybe not in so great a detail, but in that I could manage my funds by fining those companies and industries that overuse the water allocated, and if I was in a particularly 'obedient' society, I would add that to the conditions for the residents (as we have particularly severe water restrictions here in Australia, yet water tanks are not compulsory... go figure). Anyway, just thought I'd add this perspective to those who find water planning tedious - it's an everyday reality here...

[John-SJ]

I confess, I have played The Sims, and even picked up Sims 2 a while back.

Going to the bathroom is part of daily reality. I do it several times a day, as well as everyone I know. But I still hate the fact that my Sims spend so much time in the bathroom, as far as I am concerned it adds to the tedium of the game with very little return in value.

Thinking about it though, IMO the Sims bathroom habits have more gameplay value than water pipes in SC. (this is just an opinion, not an attack on anyone's play preferences) At least in The Sims there is a balancing of necessary activities such as hygiene, eating, sleeping, mixed with the fun activities of the game. Still, I play games for fun, and I would prefer the focus be on the fun rather than on the tedium, or what I view as tedium.

[Adagio]

Thinking about it though, IMO the Sims bathroom habits have more gameplay value than water pipes in SC

A lot of hardcore SimCity fans likes the extra strategy options it gives, like if there's an area in the city you don't want to be inhabited with rich sims you'll just have to make sure the water doesn't reach the area

But as I've said before, I'm one of the few SimCity players who doesn't mind seeing it gone

[UnzippedSim77]

I confess, I have played The Sims, and even picked up Sims 2 a while back.

Going to the bathroom is part of daily reality. I do it several times a day, as well as everyone I know. But I still hate the fact that my Sims spend so much time in the bathroom, as far as I am concerned it adds to the tedium of the game with very little return in value.

Thinking about it though, IMO the Sims bathroom habits have more gameplay value than water pipes in SC. (this is just an opinion, not an attack on anyone's play preferences) At least in The Sims there is a balancing of necessary activities such as hygiene, eating, sleeping, mixed with the fun activities of the game. Still, I play games for fun, and I would prefer the focus be on the fun rather than on the tedium, or what I view as tedium.


Could be a reason for the unfair distribution of water in the world - too many people don't think of it as a problem ;) But yes, I do think it is a vital part of city strategy...

[John-SJ]

Could it also be, maybe, weather patterns?

edit: Sorry, but I'm just too curious, so I'll ask: Do you really think that I am contributing to a worldwide unfair distribution of water because I don't feel that water piping in SC4 is an important feature of the game?

[UnzippedSim77]

Could it also be, maybe, weather patterns?

edit: Sorry, but I'm just too curious, so I'll ask: Do you really think that I am contributing to a worldwide unfair distribution of water because I don't feel that water piping in SC4 is an important feature of the game?
No, I don't think that.. I was musing upon an attitude, that's all... An attitude that seems to be that the nations that have 'plenty' of water don't seem to understand the preciousness of the resource to those nations that need to watch what they use... Disregard it completely ;)

[Kinneas]

I like that folks keep reinforcing the notion: "When you click on a building you could get more options than you have seen before...Playable locations."

I agree with folks who feel, in that concept there really does seem a potential way to make water/power distribution more fun and remove the need for manually placing pipe/power (or other utility systems).

e.g. Clicking the City Utilities building: Slide controls on master consoles at the city utilities building could allow you to deliver city zones, water, power, etc. and allow you to slide how much is sent to an area, etc. etc.

e.g. Clicking individual plots within city zones: Slide control how each building in a zone receives utilities and to what degree.

---Request for expansion. Playable locations (probably better as SC5 idea)

-COPS in SIMCity "Bad Boys! Watcha' gonna do when they come for you!":

As beloved Mayor and part-time police officer you patrol your city streets and skies, flagging speeders, jaywalkers, criminal activity, save cats and llamas in distress. Earn extra money to spend on 'bling' for yourself or use the extra cash to upgrade your city police force. As your police force grows and your citizens sleep better at night...watch out for Arch-criminals and super villains. You may need a secret identity and your own 'bat-mobile', Mayor!"

Super villains and super heroes could be individual expansions that enhance your COPS. Deal with super criminals using COPS only or add super heroes when you have had enough.

[MarkDuffy]

I'm assuming that TM will have water in the game, cuz every CB game has & needs water.

If not there already, then I add it as a suggestion. I don't need pipes, but a few water buildings with appropriate areas of influence would do it.

[Aushun]

imo, water needs to be in the game, however it doesn't need to be as meticulous a feature as was seen in SimCity 4. An ideal compromise would be, as has been mentioned several times, water towers or similar facilities with a radius around them that provides water to all buildings within said radius. If you think about it, the pipes were merely a means of extending water coverage beyond the radius, due to the water towers not having a large enough radius. If such radii are relatively increased, then there won't be any need for pipes. A similar system could be employed for Power. It's all a matter of focus; as a game entitled and about Societies, should the game be focusing on infrastructure, or should a minimum standard be set for infrastructure so that the game can concentrate on its goal (ie. Societies)? There's no need to eliminate secondary elements, however nor is there any need to focus too much on them.

[seafloorian]

Coming from the Impressions Games/Tilted Mill fan base, I'd like to see some things from their CB series that I haven't heard anything about yet.

The detailed and diverse economy with world level interaction to get goods your city can't produce itself is one.

I wonder if there are resources involved in building huge buildings such as sky scrapers. It would be nice if huge buildings would be gradually constructed rather than simply plopped in place. Construction sites are an inherent part of cities these days.

Interdependency of various industries (raw versus refined goods and byproducts).

Also on the world level, it would be nice to see immigration and diplomacy linked with the various energies and the city's place in the rest of the world. Are cities in a gingerbreadman country willing to trade with an obedience city?

I would like to see some form of religion in addition to the social energies. I know this is a precarious subject because this game is not set in a known historical setting, but it is an important part of society for many people.

I wonder how the social structure will be related to the various energies. Will it be possible for citizens to rise in social status by economic or political enterprise in a technocity? Will obedience lead to an upper class of soldiers and policemen? What will lead citizens to riot?

One thing I would not like is a too strong move towards The Sims. In the City Builder series, people are individuals, but the player can't control them as such, whereas directing individuals is exactly the purpose of The Sims. Let's keep the player actions on the society/city level, not the individual.

[Adagio]

It would be nice if huge buildings would be gradually constructed rather than simply plopped in place


It was like that in SimCity 4, but as far as we know it wont be in SC:S... I hope I'm wrong, but I don't think I am :(


The detailed and diverse economy with world level interaction to get goods your city can't produce itself is one.


Why should the mayor care about that? It's up to the store owners to order goods from other cities what they can't get here

[Romaq]

It was like that (buildings being built) in SimCity 4, but as far as we know it wont be in SC:S... I hope I'm wrong, but I don't think I am :(

That's part of the fun of seeing new things being built up in town. For a generic algorithm, SC4's 'building grower' process does a pretty good job of matching what I see in real life, and it is part of the magic of playing the game.

And *magic* within a game, that spark of 'Ah-ha! I see it in real life, I see it in the game!' is *real* hard to come by in a way that lights up a face and has people wanting more.

Why should the mayor care about that (Macro Economics)? It's up to the store owners to order goods from other cities what they can't get here

What we receive at our plant is either from Japan, Germany, Canada or 'anywhere in the US but here local'. What we *produce* (surimi seafood) is shipped pretty much anywhere in the US *except* here locally, and then it is shipped *back* here to our local stores along with whatever else that store brand carries of what the local store needs.

http://www.haggen.com/ is known for making every effort to 'buy local' first, where possible. They seem to have very good quality local produce for sale. That local produce is also terribly expensive, on average, compared to pretty much every other grocery store, so we don't shop at Haggen. Of course, *not* shopping locally has its own hidden costs on the local economy, money flow, local taxes and local investment. Even then, 'local' manufacturing, 'local' produce, 'local' anything doesn't necessarily have to do with what will fit in 'Whatcom County', which is roughly about as large a region as I can play on SC4.

People complain that 'industry' only needed to get to the edge of the city, and then the manufactured goods went 'somewhere I know not where'. That's because it is pretty much a rather accurate reflection of how it all really REALLY works. This is particularly true when you refer to an area the size of a single county of the US.

So if you want 'realistic industrial economy', you simply are not going to see within a 'Sim CITY' game where anything comes from or where it all goes to, even if the goods are considered 'local'. The world is a really REALLY big place, and your average tiny US county is almost too huge to load into the game.

Since 'Sim CITY' is not 'Sim ECONOMY', any bent on realism pretty much means you simply won't 'see' the travel of goods internal to a county on a scale that makes sense and still runs on your average game machine.

Now maybe in 2020 we could start doing some city economics modling on a state/ country scale within a game on a 'desktop' machine. Of course, the scale of something like that would be so huge the mind simply can't wrap around it, but that's an entirely different issue.

--Romaq

[seafloorian]

Why should the mayor care about that? It's up to the store owners to order goods from other cities what they can't get here
The mayor shouldn't be involved in the day-to-day business of shop owners, but it is his task to facilitate their work by maintaining good relations with the mayors of key supplier cities. If the politics don't work, the trade will suffer.

The way it has been in the CB series is that some goods must be imported and imports can be blocked if certain demands are not met. Some similar mechanism could work in SC:S. It's not Sim Econonomy, no, but it could add an additional layer of depth to the game instead of keeping it all local or abstract.

[UnzippedSim77]

I know this seems pretty obvious, but I'd like a feature which allows us to choose the type of terrain the city is built on just like the options given in the Sims 2 where you choose: Lush, Desert, Concrete and whatever the last one is (lol I forget) but with a more sophisticated set of options such as: polar/Arctic/Antartctic, Hot desert, Cold desert, temperate, plains, rainforest, alpine, with the added bonus of expansions or Easter Eggs which give alien-style terrains, like Lunar, Martian, Venutian, etc. This would enhance the game play and also the individual socieites being placed, as a tropical green society would look pretty silly in an alpine setting, and so on. Climate belt is another issue which I think would be easily enough incorporated into the game: to live in the Tropics, it would mean more chance of a cyclone/hurricane/typhoon, while in the Tornado belt would obviously give rise to Tornadoes, An earthquake or volcanic region which would bring more probability of those disasters, while England would be rain and flood (lol, just kidding). Societies evolve and adapt to their climatic conditions as well as to the types of 'energies' that are being pushed in them... Just a few (more) considerations.

[Romaq]

I know this seems pretty obvious, (snip) ... Societies evolve and adapt to their climatic conditions as well as to the types of 'energies' that are being pushed in them... Just a few (more) considerations.

Yeah. Biomes were mentioned before, but it can't be stated often enough. The desert wasteland of Las Vegas is WAY different from the great Northwet area I live in. SC4 didn't have much in the way of controling biomes. Custom textures only went part of the way. You have to break out the 'no palms' mod, and then there's the problem of climate changes due to altitude changes within a short range. I hope biome settings are more easily implimented in SC:S, and those have quite an impact as well.

--Romaq

[Peugeot_206]

Ok, a huge request coming in.........


Spline Roads
Curve out roads on a Spline, but you could still connect it to regular straight/normal road tiles. When zoning, the zone will automatically fill in to the street, and will go ahead with a normal type building if there is %75 usable in the tile.


Also for highway on ramps/off ramps, interchanges, youd' just click from the exit point to the entrance point. If you need it to keep going, you'd just click it to keep going and connect it to something else. It'll even dig a tunnel/Build a bridge if neccessary. Can also do the same with roads and intersections.


Zone city boundries:

You start out with a big area, but you determine city boundries. Will even fill in if there's an odd shaped piece that has been isolated.

Zone tolerances

Each city will need Different zoning. Big cities will need Light, Medium and Large (mostly large) zoning of commerical/residential to keep the city balanced and satisfy everyone.


Streets of Sim City
Be able to race in your whole region

Be able to control things like Buses, Taxis and even your own sims car (i.e Taxi Cab route, bus line, commute to work or any other courier service)

Teach about safe driving. (I know, But I really want blinkers/turn signals!)

Be able to create cars (Like Racer, a Free Racing Program) classify them, like the fact you'd make a Smart ForTwo, which is a City/Urban car. You'd classify it as an urban car, and thus you'd see it more in big cities, rather than rural open pastures.(minivans/family cars near schools) You'd have Three classifications for each car type.

Family Sedan, $, $$, $$$ (seats 5)

Minivan/Family Mover, $,$$,$$$(seats 6 or 7)

Compact Car, $,$$,$$$(seats 4)

SUV, $,$$,$$$ (predominantly in rural areas, except if your city Aura is low, or commute time is too high)(seats 5-8)

Cargo/Courier= Small, Medium, Large, and Semi-Trailer

Large Family Sedan= $$,$$$(seats 5, but bigger)

Urban Vehicle= $$,$$$ (seats two)

Pickup (predominantly in rural areas, or low-income housing)

Mass Transit/Taxis (seating from 5 to 75)

Road Rage occurs when people get stressed from high commute times, unkempt mass transit (thus making them drive to and fro) unkempt roads. People will stop driving smaller cars, and will use larger cars, (SUV, Large Family Sedan, Minivan) to feel safer on the road, but increasing wear and tear on roads and increasing commute times.

Incorperate Real-time traffic scaniarios, rush hours day/night, construction areas, accidents (due to road rage, overstressed roads and unkempt roads) even total gridlock

Rain/weather. (unnessary but nice to have)

Drive train:

When programming a new car, you classify it, decide weather it's FWD, RWD or AWD, decide where the engine is (Mid, Rear or Front) and of course design an in car view.

Accidents: After so much, your car would explode.

[Peugeot_206]

Make the buildings taller.

The ones in SC4(especially the commercial) are wayy too short, rather than SC3K they were super tall.

Create Traffic heavier

Maybe more dense traffic like big rush hours near business hours or Sporting events.

Half tiles
Diagonal roads would serve better purposes if all zones could use a half tile to take up.

Civic Building Zoning

Things such as Hospitals, Schools, Airports, Stadiums, Convention Centers and Seaports would have special zones (As seen in SC3K) Would work well with 'SPORE'.

Roads, Roads, Roads...........

Make More road options. As seen in real life, make highways, ground, elevated, 2lane, 3 lane all the way up to six lanes. On ramps and off ramps could be more complex, being more of a point and shoot thing. (i.e. the exit from the freeway, then you just point to where it should connect up at. It'd also be able to connect to more than one street) Avenues and roads could be have a selector of weather to be 2 lane, 3 lane and so on. You could have regular streets, but have a request to have parking on it, or have it be a one lane alleyway. They could also be one way. BTW, Diagonal bridges need to be present. Maybe even such things as roundabouts or Cul-de-saks.

Public Transit

Bus Stops would be more complex. You could have on street bus stops, (on a road panel) larger bus stops, bus terminals, and things such as the park and ride (falls in line with 'Civic Building Zoning') Subways and above ground rail could be shared with Bus Stops/Vice Versa. (i.e. the bus terminal is also a subway station

Dual Purpose Zoning

Make some commercial zones Also partialy residental, and vice versa.

City Sectors

Make Defined Sectors. (i.e in NYC you have NYC, but Queens, Manhattan........) You'd also be able to name Elementary, Middle, and high schools, as well as Hospitals and such. You'd also be able to tax these city sectors individually. Streets and highways would also be able to be named.

Population Base

In SC3K, it was relatively easy to get +1,000,000. You should be able to do that again.

Climate/Disasters

Be able to establish warnings for Hurricanes. Snow and Snow Plows should be available.

If a meltdown happens, it should effect the entire region.

Anyway, you should be able to split highways (make one set of lanes go one way, another set of lanes another, ideal for weaving around buildings) and split the lanes into off/onramps, or interchanges. Also, For highways, support beams and such should be placed accordingly, rather being set and predetermined.


We also need 1 lane roads(alley) and when you want to widen/replace a road, it takes time, rather than it just dissappearing and popping back up, you'd have to partially close the road, or provide an alternate way out.


Road Types

Avenues (1-3 lanes)

Roads (2-4 lanes)

Streets (also can curve, form bridges and go diagonal)

On road tile bus stops, sitting bus stops (sitting ones require %50 of the tile)

Ground, Rural, Elevated highways (from 2 to 6 lanes)

One way Streets/Roads

City connections- Each connecting city will throw down a a preportinate amount to make a connection between the two cities where a city hasn't been founded.

[Romaq]

Peugeot's request of 'roads to spline' may be a tall order, but it's one I really REALLY hope makes it in. Even Las Vegas, with nothing but flat-land desert you can see for miles, MOST roads are on a simple grid, but The Strip is diagonal. Add hills and a desire to force people to SLOW THE HELL DOWN in residential zones, and curvy roads are a must.

And you are FREAKIN' FULL 3D! Basing your transit and everything else on a fixed grid has some short term advantages, but grids are not happy in the long term. SC4 with it's '2 1/2D' scheme of fixed blocks made the release of diagonal roads a short-term necessary, and it's taken NAM 2007 and some serious modders to fix that problem as well as the development of housing that can take advantage of diagonal roads and intersections.

Please oh please-please don't make us take a step back to 2003 or even really before with limited griddy transit, particularly transit that doesn't even have the benefit of diagonal roads as SC4 has.

--Romaq

[JuliaSet]

musing:
Maybe diagonal roads, splines etc would be a good xpack addition, if it is too tricky to polish at this stage of the game. Diagonal roads were probably very tricky to do in their last games./muse

[tickleonthetum]

This is my list of hopes so far...


Expansion packs (more buildings, new transportation types, etc.).
Buildings that appear to be built up when placed (plopped).
More transportation types (various types of Road/vehicle, Rail, ship, air, canals).
God Mode terraforming.
Disasters.
Lots of building/Fauna/Flora variation.
Difficulty levels.
Diagonal Roads (as in Caesar IV).
Power/Water/Gas supply buildings with a radius effect.
Weather (as in Caesar IV).
Water features (rivers, streams, seas. The rivers/streams flow downhill.).
Basic economic features but no anywhere as in depth as SC4.



Now some of these features I know are already in the game, but I'm really hoping more can be added by expansion packs.

[Ocram]

Adjustable roads (num. of lanes, 1 way vs 2 ways, width of lanes, HOV y/n, bicycle lanes y/n; turning lanes y/n, medians y/n, parking - parallel, perpendicular, diagonal, none at all; width/presence of sidewalks and parking strips, etc). Also pedestrian over passes or even giant elevated moving sidewalks over the road like in certain Asian cities (Hong Kong?).
Eye candy powerlines and phone lines (since TM decided not to put actual ones in the game) with a wide assortment of types from small wooden to giant metal super powerlines that carry power for an entire region.

[nelzpunk]

Sim City back on consoles!!!!!!!:)

[Romaq]

musing:
Maybe diagonal roads, splines etc would be a good xpack addition, if it is too tricky to polish at this stage of the game. Diagonal roads were probably very tricky to do in their last games./muse

I think the transit issue is a problem of design. Do they anchor everything to single unit 16m grid points, such as with SC4? Or do they anchor on 1m points? Does the engine think of roads as descrete 16m tile units? Or are roads anchored by intersections/ cul-de-sacs with the 'road' being a flexible path interpreted between?

As is with much of life, the problem of what you can do begins with the language of how you ask the question. SC4's notion of transit consists of 16m unit tiles. 'Curves' as such in transit are not part of the language. 'Layering' isn't a part of SC4's language either. The appearance of layered transit, bridges, subways and such is all smoke & mirrors. When you actually attempt to go in and build such structures, the concepts simply don't exist. That's why it's taken NAM until 2007 to form the concepts into SC4, along with trying to resolve the worst issues with transit in SC4.

So curves, building on angles, layering and such with SC:S hangs in large part to how the engine was designed. If they didn't build in concepts that allow for flexible transit, those features might have to be painfully hacked in as it is with NAM 2007.

Until they show us some non-griddy transit networks, we just don't know.

--Romaq

[aeval99]

I hate to seem so utterly shallow with my request, especially when others have been so in-depth, and intelligently discussed a multitude of issues...but, I just want more varied decorations (including flora, as a few people requested earlier).

City building games (TM, Impressions or otherwise) never have enough decorations and you end up using the same tired old statues, trees and ponds over and over again.

Please TM, I beg you, for lots and lots of statues, plazas, decorative trees, bushes, flowerbeds, goofy sculpture, parks, fountains and anything else you can think of. Please! I'll bake you cookies, sacrifice a paper mâché kitten at the hidden, black alter of game developers, knit you a pair of socks with toes, anything you ask! (Actually I can't knit, but the other two things are definitely on). :D

One more tiny thing. I've never seen an engineer purposefully construct a marble-type plaza that is not mostly flat. All decorative plazas should have the ground leveled underneath them before they are built and then be connected with ramps/stairs if needed. There's nothing more annoying than building a decorative plaza that looks like a fancy goat path. Could the fancy plazas and walkways please be flat?

[Christoffre]

You should add paths that only pedestrians can walk on. And if it´s not flat you can add stairs. Most citys have walk- and bicycle-paths.

Thers must also be public transportations-systems like buses(that has halts ON the road not beside it like the previous SC), subways, ground and elevated trains and if you have a knowlege-city mayby also teleports.

One more thing.
Have a option so you can shoose if you want roads with the American yellow lines or the European with white lines and zebracrossings. If theres any more sorts of roads you can add them too.

[JuliaSet]

Since we don't have any idea of what kind of map size is possible, if indeed there are several sizes one might select, I'd like to have an Apron tool so that I could design the edges of my custom map so that its appropriate for the climate and elevation, make the water elements such as sea, river, etc. meet my land details properly.

In Caesar4, we are somewhat limited for the apron choices and have to design land detail TO meet the listed aprons. The apron files are in a rather tricky file format, so there has been little done with them.

Does the apron come with a specific daily cloud/sun/moon/stars sequence or are they a seperate layer?

Wish Sir David or Sir Jeff could help us on this one.

[Romaq]

An apron file would work, if I understand the idea. I could pull in either a static 360 degree image that 'looks' like something is there, even though it's just an image, or I could grab a huge amount of elevation data, 'freeze' the data, maybe populate it with color for mountain snow, rolling green hills and ocean hue, and then soften an area in the middle of it that actually serves as the city I can build upon. I've not worked with anything like that, and I'm not sure how it works in practice, but it's a solution I could work with.

Still waiting on bean spillage.

--Romaq

[JuliaSet]

Hmm Beans in Boston are a big thing.. Wonder if we are ready for them?

[Romaq]

"Not everyone's from Boston, John" --Franklin, 1776 (the Broadway Show/ Movie)

--Romaq

[John-SJ]

Having a moddable game is a very good thing! Having a game where mods can be downloaded and easily incorporated into the core game is even better!

One of the biggest shortcomings I see with SimCity 4 is that it is tedious in the extreme to download a mod, and then have to manually download all of its dependencies, sometime searching for them across multiple websites.

A means of organizing dependencies so that they are all downloaded with the mod on an as-needed basis or some other means of decreasing the tedium would make SimCity Societies not only a better game, but a revolutionary one.

[Romaq]

Concerning custom content mods, this is the very same issue experienced by the Linux community. Various groups with various objectives have coined various means to solve interdependency problems with various amounts of success at it.

One of the faults with SC4's content has to do with data storage. I wish they had opted for either leaving the files open to the OS (so you didn't need to dither with special binary readers to look at FILE data) or they did something like what Java did with .WAR and .JAR files. Rename the file to .ZIP, then it's readable like any ol' .ZIP file is.

Another problem with SC4 content is the lack of 'meta data tags'. Who is the author and how do I contact this person? What is an authoritative website for this content? What version is this content vs. an update? Here is a killer tag: What objects do I depend on, and where am I most likely to find them?

I did notice that SC4 objects appear to have GUIDs of some sort, though I didn't look too closely at that. I would strongly urge that SC:S custom content ALSO have GUIDs, but also allow for signatures and encryption. "I don't want you to copy/ modify my building directly. You may download it and use it free, but the actual content is encrypted, so you may not view it 'raw'". "I don't mind if you mess with my building and use stuff, but I have a reputation for my work, so this is signed by me, and everyone knows how to see my signature in this content so you can't make stuff up and claim I made it to get people to look at it." Those sorts of issues.

I don't really want SC:S to directly copy the Debian package scheme (.DEB packages), but I wish the developers had time to review the theory behind those, and .RPM and such, understood the problems the Linux Distro people faced, and their solutions towards those problems. And, of course, apply the solutions to SC:S as appropriate. It would be really trick if I could just buy a damned DVD from SimTropolis of custom content, then have SC:S figure out what of that content on DVD is appropriate for what I want to accomplish, and by the way be able to look up from SimTropolis and figure out what of that content on DVD is actually out-of-date, get the more up-to-date version, and be able to determine that the file on the STEX *is* an authentic copy and not just some hack someone threw in to bork my system.

That's a tall, complex request. I don't expect to see it in SC:S, but it's something I can hope for. And, what the hell, TM *might* decide to put stuff like that in the NEXT game they do, and set a standard for custom content that other companies have to pick up on. And *THEN* someday, SC6 will have that feature.

I can dream, right?

--Romaq

[John-SJ]

I have no idea what .DEB or .RPM are, so these comments may be out of place. I'm just thinking aloud.

What if there was a repository for cusotm content. To submit to the repository you had to supply not just the content itself, but a copy of anything it depends on as well. Part of the submission process would check the included dependencies and check in anything it doesn't have a match for, discarding the rest.

Then, when you want to download content, you can download the content only, or optionally, the content plus dependencies, or the dependencies alone, without the content. A little smarter, there could be a checkbox next to each dependency, allowing you to pick and choose. Smarter still, download an activeX control and just download the desired content, the dependencies that you lack are downloaded for you, or you are given the choice to download them or not.

Obviously there are a ton of details that I have not even touched on, but something along those lines would be pretty nice, and much easier than what we have now.

[JuliaSet]

Civilizations 4 and its xpacks have a Mod folder. In the folder are all the Mods which contain all custom assets needed to play the game.. Maybe the xml would have enough data to override default actions if there are hooks for it.

[Romaq]

*.DEB and *.RPM are compressed files with meta-data content. Various Linux distributions make use of them along with an internal database to decide if a given package that's already installed needs to be upgraded, or if packages not yet present need to be installed. They may also contain authentication info so that you knew that a given .RPM is the 'official' RPM from RedHat, which makes that particular distribution. That authentication method is available to anyone who publishes their public key, so if I made an RPM, you could always verify *I* am the one who made it, not someone else claiming to be me. The focus isn't really about using explicitly .RPM or .DEB style packages for custom content, but about the problems with interdependency conflicts and managing distributed content, how those problems are inherent to custom content, and what solutions may apply to SC:S.

The BSC on SC4Devotion.com has hard won knowledge on how to resolve much of the mess, and http://sc4devotion.com/csxlex/lex_filedesc.php?lotGET=97 (The BSC Cleanitol) is one tool meant by the BSC to take some of the pain out. If we could do a time-warp and have the BSC team set up the STEX from the beginning, or better yet have them explain the problem to the SC4 development team, we could have had much the same content but in far more manageable packages. Even if the SC4 devs did nothing, the ‘time-warped BSC’ team could have set up an expected format for submitting files to the STEX that included an openly viewable compressed file with an XML metadata file and structure we could call ‘sc4zip’. An SC4Zip file would have the features built-in to make the BSC Cleanitol unnecessary, except as a tool to scan a group of packages and warn what’s missing, where to get it, what files have duplicate objects, and among those which objects appear to have the latest version. Having it confirm an authenticated signature match would be quite the bonus.

The SC4Zip file would have to be a published, open standard with the ability to grow as more is learned. In fact, the SC4Zip file would have to be versioned itself in case everyone decided changes were needed. The STEX could fetch preview images and description from within the SC4Zip package itself, or decide what parts of the package are not formatted correctly and provide a message on what’s wrong and how to fix it. The STEX could also update the metadata file with the link used to store the SC4Zip package (i.e. a link like http://www.simtropolis.com/stex/details.cfm?id=18530). Simply downloading the file includes info on where-n-hell you got it, and a simple tool could be made so clicking on a SC4Zip file opens up a web page that looks pretty much like http://www.simtropolis.com/stex/details.cfm?id=18530 and includes a link to http://www.simtropolis.com/stex/details.cfm?id=18530 making it very easy to check for updates. Hell, the software ought to be able to run a query and find updates as they apply. The website could accept a list of packages and return the list of only packages that have been updated.

The freakin’ cool part is, NOBODY needs to have full control. People could still submit SC4 content without it being in SC4Zip format, but the benefits of using the format would be obvious and encouraged. Nobody needs to maintain a repository, the info required is held by the package itself and the ‘source’ website.

Now, of course, SC4 has been in existence a LONG time, and nothing like that’s going to happen because of the sheer volume of SC4 content that already exists and nobody wants to mess with. Quite a lot of that content is no longer being maintained by its author, and few to want to mess with someone else’s work. But that’s my story of what *could* have happened with SC4, and it has lessons that could apply to SC:S. Once we have some sort of detail on how custom content works with SC:S, and to what extent TM is willing to support package management features into the client, we can begin publishing test suites to show how well the concept works in practice as well as provide templates for people to cheerfully steal and use for their own custom content. It would also be a chance for Dirk to think through things like his own gripes about enduser submissions to the STEX, and how package management could be used more effectively in his role as the STEX gatekeeper. It’s a chance for the BSC to mull over a ‘group signature’, one that flags a BSC work, and another signature particular to a BSC member. Does the BSC have issues with people claiming to be part of their group, but isn’t? How does the BSC deal with outed members, if that’s ever happened? And the BSC has so much fantastic work that cooperates well from different authors towards the whole group, how could some form of package management help with that?

Sorry for so long and gritty a post, but I’ve been stewing over this stuff over the last year, and I do not wish to wait until 2010 for things like the Cleanitol, the StartupManager and so on to show up for SC:S when hard-won lessons in SC4 Custom Content could be applied now and given as much ‘official’ blessing as possible from the start.

--Romaq

[John-SJ]

Thanks for the explanation Romaq. If these types of systems already exist in Societies, great! I will comment Tilted Mill for it. If hooks exist, well, okay, that's at least a start. But even if they don't, BSC (and others? this is an area of ignorance for me), have already shown that great inroads can be made even without direct support in the game. If an effort is made from the start with Societies, we will be far better off than if not.

And now, I wish to open a new topic. In this thread (http://www.tiltedmill.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13579) there is a discussion of migration of sims in an online setting. I want to share a quick idea of how something like that might work, and show that it wouldn't be a terribly complex task to accomplish.

First, assume there is the concept of an online game. To start an online game the player simply chooses a server (one server per "Society") and starts a city. This act will establish the new city as part of "this" online society.

Each time you leave the game (or perhaps, periodically during play) the state of your city will be transmitted to the server. This would not include a map of the city but would have some info on individual sims as well as an enumeration of energies and their strengths, perhaps a summary of jobs available, venues, and housing.

When I log onto my city some arbitration would occur between my game instance and all of the other game instances housed on the server. The main focus of this arbitration would be to generate a list of who will be leaving my city and who will be joining. Then, during play, these actions will take place over time. I might see a message, "Joe Schmoe has left your city to move to Timbuktu because he liked the job opportunities there", "Cynthia Cymple has moved to your city because of the great shopping opportunities here".

An interesting note about such a feature, it wouldn't even need to be fully implemented by Tilted Mill. If hooks were provided to allow for immigration/emigration along with a spec on how to use it, the actual server could be written by a third party.

If such a feature is not part of the original release, with lobbying it could be part of a patch update, and if not that, certainly part of an expansion, if the community wanted it enough.

[Romaq]

Arg! I didn't get up and leave the computer yet. Hard not to hit the refresh button and contribute to the churn, so here it is...

SVN (and other software of the same type) keeps track of changes to data from multiple sources and it keeps all the data consistant. So one example of 'Networking SC:S' might go like this using SC:S:

You have a governor of a region who has the responsibility of deciding who gets what areas in which to develop cities within the region, and how much custom content they can bring to the region. The governer also decides what the goal of a particular 'game':

First city to reach a particular scenario?
Hitting a target population goal for the entire region?
Recreating a real-life target area to the greatest extent possible?
First city to 'steal' a percentage of residential population from nearby cities?

Once the goal is choosen and the limits are decided upon, SVN is used by all members to maintain a region identicle to all users of the region. When someone 'plays' and makes an update, they commit their changes to the region. The next person who plays does an 'update', and what they have is exactly the game where the other left off. If there is a conflict where two people attempt to update different changes at the same time, the last person to attempt the commit has to resolve the conflict. If that person can't resolve the conflict or the two people can't resolve it between them, the governer has to step in to referee and make the call according to the rules everyone agrees upon from the start.

This type of gameplay can be done without TM's explicit permission or consent. It's possible for them to design the game data storage in such a way as to make playing this way difficult, but there's nothing TM can do to make it simply impossible. Conversely, there's one hell of a great deal TM can do to support and encourage gameplay this way without explicitly confusing people about it 'out-of-the-box'.

One thing TM can do is open the damned data storage format and have the option of *not* compressing data files, and storing data in XML. They could also set the file structure in such a way as to make 'conflicts' as I've described less likely and easier to deal with. An example of how NOT to make things easier is how SC4 touches all adjacent cities of whatever given city you are working on. If SC4 maintained 'city connection info' as a separate file from the cities themselves. Better yet if this data was stored as XML with reference to GUIDs and human readable numbers. But that's not what the SC4 dev team did, and SC:S might have notions of data storage and concepts of objects within the city that make my example of SC4 city interaction irrelevant. But what SVN is capable of accomplishing remains.

Worst case: SC:S stores data in a proprietary binary format that is opaque to all tools. The data is really a complete database, it's own file system, and absolutely nothing can be done within SCS saves that makes the data readable. That wouldn't matter to SVN. Instead of having multiple files you can keep distinct and grant access write access on the basis of 'mayors' and who *ought* to have write access, you only have one file. Conflicts in versions have to be settled brutally by passing an electronic 'baton'. The one with the baton is the only one who may edit until the governer 'revokes' the baton and hands it to another. And again, depending upon how the single file 'database' is managed, transmitting those changes might be rather slow and painful.

But it can be done, with or without the consent and approval of EA/ TM. That's not to say anyone would want to bother doing so at that point, but it's possible to do in the worst of conditions with no central authority beyond someone deciding to play governer and setting up/ managing an SVN server.

Best case scenario, you won't need to use SVN at all whatsoever, unless you want to do something outside the scope of what the SC:S client thinks it will permit. You would be able to interact over the 'Net in a suitable fashion and entirely within the SC:S client.

But until we get some details on that, all we can do is speculate and consider useful software tools to use as pry bars to get at what we want. And, of course, active cooperation with the devs is far less messy than using pry bars any day.

--Romaq

[nexusdog]

Each time you leave the game (or perhaps, periodically during play) the state of your city will be transmitted to the server. This would not include a map of the city but would have some info on individual sims as well as an enumeration of energies and their strengths, perhaps a summary of jobs available, venues, and housing.

Someone remind me of those values again...

Anyway, what immediately springs to mind is that sims will be driven by venues, jobs and housing, so it narrows the reason to actually migrate, unless the society itself has other factors which contribute to migration to a specific city.

Sims themselves will need a personality, a history (education springs to mind, as well as intangible things - why do we like one genre of music over another, for example - which pulls them to a city. That's something which deserves a topic in itself unless someone can summarise how Sims 1 & 2 actually plays and whether any of this is relevant.

I suppose we could use real life examples - which neighbourhoods, cities or countries would we like to live? Would that fulfill our hobbies, our interests in things like art, or whatever? How would that be translated in to a sim? Would it even be worth it? I think it would, because this is what the game appears to be about - fulfilling the denizens of your game city.

However, having to deal with 10 or 100 sims and their constant *****in' about what's not right about the city would soon prompt me to put fist through monitor - it's simply not fun.

When I log onto my city some arbitration would occur between my game instance and all of the other game instances housed on the server. The main focus of this arbitration would be to generate a list of who will be leaving my city and who will be joining. Then, during play, these actions will take place over time. I might see a message, "Joe Schmoe has left your city to move to Timbuktu because he liked the job opportunities there", "Cynthia Cymple has moved to your city because of the great shopping opportunities here".

Also, how far are sims willing to travel, in an online capacity? No mention of mass transit other than roads so far, so no rail, sea or air networks (again, is it relevant?) or are they just gonna hit the road and go wherever they fancy heading off to? If that's the case, then the issue of road capacity, mentioned briefly by one of the TM'ers is going to be overloaded by the sheer volume of 'through traffic' going from one city to another and passing through all those along the way.

Hmm... now there's a thought. Making or sabotaging road networks that prevent migration! Alternatively, making routes with high volume attractive enough to entice sims to stay awhile and maybe even settle.

How do we grab Joe & Cynthias attention enough to make them stay?


You know, I feel a bit embarrassed now. :)

Actually, reading through this, you put it pretty well, but the first thing that came to mind was 'crimelord'.

To expand on this, what I meant by that was that what will attract sims to a specific society. We're all assuming things like knowledge, wealth, economics and so forth, would be the drive, the pull. But then sims have motivations as much as the next byte, right? (Political - authoritarian?)

We could see an influx of criminals to a city for it's own 'job offerings' if it were set up that way.

[Romaq]

Real life Lynden is mostly rural farmland. Many people travel The Guide Meridian corridor to jobs and venues in Bellingham, yet continue to live in Lynden because of property values and its location away from Bellingham's traffic and property values. In fact, many of the blue collar people I work with live somewhat to rather far away where property is much less expensive.

Bellingham, however, is not friendly towards industry. Industry is stinky, noisy and hazardous, as a generalization. Bellingham Cold Storage is pretty entrenched, and mostly harmless so they get to stay. But other industries such as Georgia Pacific have been squeezed out. Ferndale, however, has been turning their cow pastures and farmland into industrial parks.

Meanwhile, Bellingham is actually expanding residential areas. The growth of jobs still creates an influx of people from way outside the area who want to be close to where the jobs are rather than commute from areas along the I-5 corridor or The Guide. There is also the constant turnover of people with Western Washington University, and the school itself is gradually expanding.

Thus and so... real-life immigration issues and interactions between real towns within the area in which I live, lessons that may yet prove useful with a large region that has multiple citites/ burbclaves, and the goal of getting traffic moving between them.

--Romaq

[John-SJ]

...We could see an influx of criminals to a city for it's own 'job offerings' if it were set up that way.
There's no reason it couldn't be. Different people have different motivations. The free thinker might be attracted to the knowledge city. The one whose motivation is wealth might like the prosperity city best. The one who yearns for structure would be naturally attracted to the authoritarian city, perhaps. And the bugger with larceny in his heart might be attracted to a city with a higher than average crime rate.

Each sim could have 6 "importance scores", one for each social energy. The most attractive city for a given sim would be the one that matches his unique score.

And sure, listening to sims yammering constantly about I want this I hate that, could get old, real fast. The game needs to give these "desires" a proper balance, so it is a factor, but not an overwhelming one.

Romaq, your points about svn are quite interesting. Using such a method, at the very least a system similar to what we called in Civ, Succession Games, could be handled quite nicely. Civ is turn based, one person starts a city, plays an agreed upon number of turns, saves the game, then passes it to the next player who again plays a set number of turns, and so on. In Societies, depending on the time scale, each player could play a single city for 1 year, or 5, whatever equates to a reasonable block of time. Could be fun!

[MarkDuffy]

John-SJ, Romaq & Nexusdog: I'm really enjoying your post about the Sims. The Computer Tech Stuff is waaay over my head (but don't stop). :)

[Corinthian]

The "importance scores" you talk about, John-SJ, remind me of the Sims/2. Sims valued different aspects of life according to how you create them: you can spend so many points, or just choose a pre-populated character (based, I think, on their zodiac sign).

The SC:S Sims might require that the city's societal value be a minimum number, or else he will emigrate.

There could be Sims "waiting in the wings" that will only live in the city once it reaches a certain societal value level.

However, unless your city makes a dramatic swing in emphasis: from one value to another, the effect on your population wouldn't really change. Some Sims come, and some go, based on what they want. Your city's population ranges from 1000-1050, say, if Sims are immigrating at roughly the same rate as they are leaving. Makes me wonder if this is all moot, sort of.

In SC:S if a Sim values productivity, it would be hard to see how he wouldn't also value wealth. Unless he values working for its own sake but not making much money. Some people are like that, I suppose...

But if a Sim is a creativity-valuing Sim (damn hippies!), and for fun, you decide to take your entirely creative city and turn it into a productive slum, that Sim would be justified in complaining. But he would leave, only to be replaced by one of those mysterious work-hard-but-don't-make-money types.

And in complaining, a Sim would fit with many CB games we've seen.

"This city urgently needs more food." etc.

[nexusdog]

The SC:S Sims might require that the city's societal value be a minimum number, or else he will emigrate.

Yeah, I was thinking - you're going to need a starting point, so you'll have someone there when you begin building your society. Although I'm getting stuck in a chicken and egg loop - which comes first, sims or the city?? Can't have one without the other.



However, unless your city makes a dramatic swing in emphasis: from one value to another, the effect on your population wouldn't really change. Some Sims come, and some go, based on what they want. Your city's population ranges from 1000-1050, say, if Sims are immigrating at roughly the same rate as they are leaving. Makes me wonder if this is all moot, sort of.

I agree actually, it's a bit obvious as well, really, isn't it? But like you say, if you're striving for one particular style or balance of styles, then you'll have that migration at work on a different level than the game is set at, hence the need for balance to entice sims and the society to grow. Which sets another question - what's the bloody point of it all? :D

Originally, I put the notion of immigration as an element of online play - pitting your society against others, attracting sims and seeing where they've come from, purely out of curiosity and it's kind of evolved from there.

I actually like the idea of pulling in Sims players as well - don't they have neighbourhoods in those games? What if our societies mimic those neighbourhoods sufficiently to warrant an inclusion of sorts; the ultimate cross over game, perhaps? And, to take it a step further, if, as mayor, you could evict unruly sims. Truly, the neighbours are revolting. :)

In SC:S if a Sim values productivity, it would be hard to see how he wouldn't also value wealth. Unless he values working for its own sake but not making much money. Some people are like that, I suppose...

Don't they call it vocational jobs or something, like doctors, teaching and so forth? I dunno, just a thought.

But if a Sim is a creativity-valuing Sim (damn hippies!), and for fun, you decide to take your entirely creative city and turn it into a productive slum, that Sim would be justified in complaining. But he would leave, only to be replaced by one of those mysterious work-hard-but-don't-make-money types.

Yeah, but that's the domino effect I think TM are hinting at - when something doesn't work, it needs fixing so you need to adjust accordingly. But if you can get away with having only one reason for making a society work, where's the pull to put the extra effort into juggling other values, beyond 'let's see what else we can do'.

And in complaining, a Sim would fit with many CB games we've seen.

"This city urgently needs more food." etc.

One message is fine, and they don't migrate and the city doesn't stop functioning, it still ticks over, albeit with a very disgruntled temperament. You ramp that up by having to baby sit several hundred sims... that's migraine inducing, not fun.

I'd personally like the idea of economics being added - your society adds something which others want, be it industrial, commercial or other (science, art, anti-clown tactical training academy) into the online mix. That way, you get your own personal 'branding' out into the gaming world.

You could supply the world with the ultimate hot dog or biggest baddest criminal wannabies for hire and everything in-between associated with the societal values. But I don't see this happening and the game becomes less about city building and more about sims, which, afterall this is what SCS is all about; a Sims crossover game.

[MarkDuffy]

You could supply the world with the ultimate hot dog or biggest baddest criminal wannabies for hire and everything in-between associated with the societal values.

I can't wait!

But I don't see this happening and the game becomes less about city building and more about sims, which, afterall this is what SCS is all about; a Sims crossover game.

Ah, but I believe it is the Buildings/Decorations & not the Sims that produce & consume Societal Values.

PS ~ Unhappy Sims can be sent to the Re-education Center. They don't necessarily need to be happy.

[nexusdog]

I can't wait!

Ah, but I believe it is the Buildings/Decorations & not the Sims that produce & consume Societal Values.

PS ~ Unhappy Sims can be sent to the Re-education Center. They don't necessarily need to be happy.

Here's one for you.

In some of the pics supplied by ManagerJosh, you can clearly see, at the bottom of the screen, within the toolbar jobbie, lots of green simoleans being generated - wot's that all about then?

Anyway, I believe the biggest threat to the game so far hasn't really been touched upon much, although some share my views:

clowns

[MarkDuffy]

Don't know, Nexusdog. They are all "+" which I guess are income. In one image there are so many of them that they totally blot out the area (Interface there needs a bit of work).

If we assume they are income from, let's say, various Workplaces & since most of the income numbers on the Buildings themselves are much larger; they might indicate daily/weekly paychecks to the city treasury or something & the Building shows monthly/yearly maximum?

At this point, I guess they are updates to the city Simoleans bottom line & not associated with the icons they are over.

EDIT: They might not even be in the final game ~ just pre-alpha dev helps

[nexusdog]

Don't know, Nexusdog. They are all "+" which I guess are income. In one image there are so many of them that they totally blot out the area (Interface there needs a bit of work).

If we assume they are income from, let's say, various Workplaces & since most of the income numbers on the Buildings themselves are much larger; they might indicate daily/weekly paychecks to the city treasury or something & the Building shows monthly/yearly maximum?

At this point, I guess they are updates to the city Simoleans bottom line & not associated with the icons they are over.

EDIT: They might not even be in the final game ~ just pre-alpha dev helps

I assumed as much, thanks. Income from sims, workplaces and venues... nah, can't be, has to be only sims otherwise they would be spawning all over the screen.

http://forums.worldsims.org/gallery (http://forums.worldsims.org/gallery/showimage.php?i=3189&c=59)

I suddenly get an urge to have a syndicate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syndicate_%28computer_game%29) gameplay mode included in SCS now, after seeing these pics.

Bring me my chaingun, forthwith!

[MarkDuffy]

On the 30th Anniversay of the Death of the KING (http://www.simplyangel.com/mymidispage7.htm)

I'm adding a new suggestion. We need a special building in SCS. Let's call it something like Graceland. :)

EDIT: I heated this up a bit to an outstanding website by Simply Angel. Enjoy! :)

[John-SJ]

Great idea! It can be inhabited by llamas with dark sideburns! :)