Terraforming

[King Faticus]

I know this was mentioned afew times but I think this is important enough that it deserves it's own thread to make it stand out more instead of hidden somewhere in the middle of a mile long post.

I really would like to see terrain altering tools in SCS they were an important part of Simcity to me and most of the fun imo was making mauntains and lakes to build my city around. There has been a way to terraform the land in every sim city I have played and im sure most Sim City fans are fond of them as much as I am. I would really like to see these teraforrming tools included in SCS in some way:)


*goes of to immagine stricking forests and mauntains-rivers behind his farms*

[MarkDuffy]

You know, King, I'm a non-terraforming player, cuz I absolutely love the difficulty terrain creates.

However, this might just be the game for it. "Might".

Good subject. :)

[EmperorJay]

I've always been a fan of terraforming and I see absolutely no reason not to add it. Adding it is not even the right phrase here. They just have to keep that feature!

[Cirugo]

Add this to my list of concerns in the thread I just posted.

[King Faticus]

Good subject. :)
Im just trying to get something constructive started... I don't think those "thank you for killing SC" threads are going to help:(

[EmperorJay]

Im just trying to get something constructive started... I don't think those "thank you for killing SC" threads are going to help:(

YOU KILLED TERRAFORMING!!! Nooooes.. King Faticus! YOU KILLED TERRAFORMING!!!! :eek:

:D I really need to start doing the laundry, dishes etc. My posts are starting to no longer make sense.

[Azeem]

Terraforming should definitely be included, although I'd like to have work crews actually do it and have it either take some game time (not too long, of course! ;) ) rather than have it instantly happen.

[MarkDuffy]

I've never been against the building up of terrain, King. Especially if it involves construction crews & also perhaps material.

It is the flattening of unbuildable areas that I have been against.

We are in a whole new ballgame here for me, not really having played a SimCity game before.

[King Faticus]

YOU KILLED TERRAFORMING!!! Nooooes.. King Faticus! YOU KILLED TERRAFORMING!!!! :eek:
OGM!! WHAT HAVE I DONE!!! lol Im going to stand in a corner :D

[EmperorJay]

Mark, why do you dislike flattening of unbuildable areas?

If it's a gameplay feature, I don't have anything to discuss as that's a personal opinion. But if it's for realism reasons... well, all I can say is that when it comes to terraforming, National Geographic and Discovery Channel never cease to amaze me about what mankind can do with our planet :p

[MarkDuffy]

Yup, Jay, as I said. This is a whole new ballgame. Modern times & we terraform like cRazy!

EDIT: And if you really want realism. No digging holes unless you do something with the dirt. Same if you want to build up; got to get the dirt from somewhere.

You wanna drain the swamps? Yep, water has to go somewhere.

[offspring_dude]

Yup, Jay, as I said. This is a whole new ballgame. Modern times & we terraform like cRazy!

EDIT: And if you really want realism. No digging holes unless you do something with the dirt. Same if you want to build up; got to get the dirt from somewhere.

You wanna drain the swamps? Yep, water has to go somewhere.
I hope this^ guy's humour isn't in the game. If the features taken out isn't enough to put me off... he is.

[King Faticus]

mark you make alot of friends lol :D

[EmperorJay]

mark you make alot of friends lol :D

Somehow, I doubt that would feel unfamiliar to him!

[MarkDuffy]

I hope this^ guy's humour isn't in the game. If the features taken out isn't enough to put me off... he is.

LOL !!!

I thought SimCity fans were concerned with realism & not magic or "cartoon" building?

You see, my friend, two can play this game. ;)

I take it you want something less realistic ~ like a cartoon shovel tool?

All things are negiotable!

[Meghan]

offspring_dude, if you keep on like this, people will start thinking that you must be green and live in a trash can. You don't love trash, do you? :rolleyes:

[UnzippedSim77]

LOL !!!

I thought SimCity fans were concerned with realism & not magic or "cartoon" building?

You see, my friend, two can play this game. ;)

I take it you want something less realistic ~ like a cartoon shovel tool?

All things are negiotable!

Touche and well-said lol. Sorry offspring, but that was a good shot back. :D
Anyway, Terraforming is definitely something I would like to see in, if not SCS, then an expansion pack released very soon after release date!!!!
Cheers.

[willy88]

Terraforming is a REQUIREMENT. Especially if it's 3D. Wouldn't want to have a nice view of a city ruined by completely flat terrain.

[offspring_dude]

Touche and well-said lol. Sorry offspring, but that was a good shot back. :D
Anyway, Terraforming is definitely something I would like to see in, if not SCS, then an expansion pack released very soon after release date!!!!
Cheers.
Where's the shot back? 'Lol'? Ermmm... k

You're comparing terraforming.. to kiddy cartoon buildings. :rolleyes:

[King Faticus]

ohh I just remembered.. i hate it when the terrain spikes up in some games that let you terraform so it would also be nice to see a smooth-out area button :)

[Romaq]

The U.S. Geological Survey offers 10 meter per pixel digital elevation map data which I have used to create a map of Whatcom County, Washington within SC4. My journey to accomplish this was quite painful and fraught with technical detail, which one may read at http://www.mik-maq.com/sc4tf/BellBaker.

Terraforming with SC4 is painful because the tools stop at 1, 2 or 4km square boundaries. ‘in client’ import data is limited to 256 level values scaled over a default, and then ‘eroded’ to smooth out the appearance of ‘steps’ because of the import limits. The SimTropolis team have devised ways of getting around SC4’s client limitations on shaping the terrain, for which I am grateful. However, there are two distinct yet related issues with ‘terraforming’ within any SimCity like game:

1) Accurate Map rendering: I would like SC5 to accept arbitrary DEM data that I can fetch from http://data.geocomm.com/catalog/US/61046/28/index.html and http://www.ngdc.noaa.gov/mgg/gdas/gd_designagrid.html and import it into SC5. People like to build fantasy cities, but I think a common ‘SimCity’ fantasy is to build one’s own hometown, only ‘better.’
2) Fantasy Map rendering: I would like SC5 to be able to directly import http://www.world-machine.com/ maps, or use other common and freely available tools to reconstruct maps of their own imagination.

Crucial to both ‘accurate’ and ‘fantasy’ maps is the import of 16 bit elevation data instead of only being able to import 8-bit images.
My preference with SC5 is that they use 10meter per unit scale data, so ‘high-def’ DEM data can be used without scaling, which is 10m per pixel. SC4 uses 16m per unit, so any ‘accurate maps’ *have* to be scaled, usually by an image processor that copes with 16 bit images, which isn’t freely available.

SC4 maps *must* fit the math model (N*64+1), where N is the number of 1.024km ‘square boxes’ that a city may fit within. DEM data is an arbitrary rectangle, and I hope SC5 can cope with arbitrary rectangles as well.

Terraforming with SC4 is also painful because of how it deals with ‘water’. All ‘real’ water is at sea level. If you wish to have a ‘lake’ in your game, you have to lower your land elevation until the ‘lake’ is below sea level. For the region I’m working on, I will *have* to use plopable ‘water lots’ to fake having the rivers, lakes and streams that exist in Whatcom County all the way to the coastline. In addition to being able to import ‘land mass elevations’ accurately, I would dearly love to be able to create a ‘water map layer’. The same source for my DEM data will also provide me free maps that show where water is, or ought to be, within my digital elevation map. It would be a fantastic step if SC5 could read a map of ‘water’ and paint where water goes, whatever the elevation. I *might* have to modify the map after import, but being *ABLE* to do such an import would mean a great deal. By the way, WorldMachine will produce a map that shows where material flows in constructing ‘erosion’ models. That means the tools used to produce ‘fantasy maps’ can ALSO be used to indicate likely rivers, streams and lakes.

Such are my thoughts on terraforming landmass within SC5.

--Romaq

[deathtopumpkins]

You know, Romaq, there was such a thing as the Terrain Generator (http://simcity.ea.com/coolstuff/terrain/terrain_01.php), right?
If you wanted to put in real terrain, you should have just used that, or been happy with the terraforming in the game.

[Romaq]

You know, Romaq, there was such a thing as the Terrain Generator (http://simcity.ea.com/coolstuff/terrain/terrain_01.php), right?
If you wanted to put in real terrain, you should have just used that, or been happy with the terraforming in the game.

I tried to use that. Really. But the program had several problems:

1) It didn't work. Sorry, I try to download the city and it just kicks me out to simcity.ea.com. Maybe it's a problem with MSIE and I should have tried it with FireFox.

2) It simply doesn't provide enough of what I'm looking for, had it worked. I wanted my region to go from Pt. Roberts to Mt. Baker, from Blaine to Fairhaven. And that's what I managed to pull together.

3) The map on the website has a Mercator Projection, which stretches zones in the upper latitudes and doesn't 'look right'. I'm using a projection suitable for accuracy with the local area.

That which is not forbidden is compulsory. So I made it work. SC5 might make it work better. What’s the problem with what I did?

--Romaq

[TheYeti]

I agree that freeform terraforming should remain in the game. Even if it is only available prior to establishing the city. After that having a works dept. or something that can the be assigned to complete only realistically possible terraforming, that actually takes time to complete (as any major works do) would be cool.

[UnzippedSim77]

To Offspring_dude: obviously the old adage 'ignorance is bliss' is just as applicable today to you.

Anyway, back to the issues, Terraforming should be a part of the game, especially with the same or similar features as for SC4, though obviously they will need to be adapted for 3D.

[Romaq]

I was disappointed by the following issues with SC4:

1) When I started a new region, my choices were 'flat land' or 'under water' for the entire region. I couldn't persuade SC4 to just make something up and dazzle me, not even with sliders to control how much and of what.

2) When I began terraforming in 'God Mode,’ I was limited to ‘within the city’. I couldn’t landscape the entire region. Having to landscape ‘city tile’ by ‘city tile’ is painful.

3) When I found out I could import 8-bit maps, that helped, it helped a lot. However, http://www.world-machine.com/World%20Machine%20Help.pdf shows the difference between 8-bit accuracy and 16-bit accuracy. Search for the words ‘Terrain Scale and Representation’ to see the image.

4) Because of the way SC4’s notion of a city is fixed to 1, 2 or 4 * 64 +1, regions sizes are locked into this scheme, so all data that will be imported must fit within (N*64)+1 on each side, so all images must be cropped. If 16 bit images are used (through a third party tool), the source data must either fit that parameter or it will be scaled.

5) Most available DEM data is from a selection of 90 meter (3 arc second), 30 meter (1 arc second) or 10 meter (1/3 arc second). Data for the US is available free to 10 meter resolution. SimCity 4 uses 16 meter resolution for terrain. All ‘normal’ available DEM data *must* be scaled for an accurate representation of the data. If 16 bit data is used, scaling this data is non-trivial.

I would ask TM keep the following in mind:

I *like* having my home-town region in SC4. I would be pleased to be able to pull in my hometown with far less the fuss I had to get it into SC4. I think most people would like to be able to ‘import’ their hometown as well. If that requires they learn a bit about how to *acquire* a DEM of their hometown, there is a huge fan base happy to help or do it for them. It would be very, very happy if we could go from http://seamless.usgs.gov/ or http://data.geocomm.com/catalog/index.html and slurp data into SC5 with as little pain as possible.

If your ‘world data’ is based upon a sparse mesh rather than fixed grid vertices, but you plan to allow us to import our own vertex maps, please give us as much notice of what’s on your mind as possible, and we’ll see what we can cook up. We might gripe, complain, and wish you’d do different. And we’ll still come up with something.

I have to stop here if I’m going to scan the forum before I have to leave for bed. I would dearly love to take the data that Google Earth uses and build my city upon that data source ‘somehow’.

--Romaq

[deathtopumpkins]

I didn't know you meant it to be so professional.
And yes i agree that it did have some problems, but it always worked fine for me, though i rarely used it because i liked to create my own little world.

[deathtopumpkins]

We did sort of have that. When you go to the top green button in mayor mode, there are some basic terraforming tools, or you could also press CRL+ALT+SHIFT+god mode button to get back to the pre-establishment terraforming tools.

[Romaq]

I wasn't thinking 'professional' so much as 'I live between emerald islands and a freakin' huge dormant volcano. That is some amazing scenery. I wonder what it would take to bring *all* of it into SC4.

And there I went.

As to the 'god mode within established city' cheat, I'm aware of that one. Unfortunately, terrain is 'very large scale,' and it's hard to make terrain larger than a single city box look right when you can only work terrrain within a single city. 'Reconcile City Edges' would still tend to make annoying puckers while trying to smooth out the differences, and corners are a nightmare.

Wouanagaine's SC4 TerraFormer makes all that pain go away. Without Wou's work, there would be no Whatcom County Region at all.

If SC5 can't provide something like SC4 TerraFormer, I'd really like them to make stuff like SC4 TerraFormer *EASIER* to create and work with SC5 data.

--Romaq

[deathtopumpkins]

washington?
yeah. that would be cool (i wouldn't want to make my area in SC4- Hampton Roads, Virginia though)
And the corners are a pain because you get little sheer cliffs, and it would be much better to be able to reconcile only one edge. That would solve a lot of problems.

[Romaq]

Yeah, that click-n-filter spam would be real handy about now.

I've no clue if the developers are listening to the input or not. I've not yet received any direct confirmation of any of my suggestions. But I have had the opportunity to state issues of particular concern to me. It's quite possible my wife will enjoy SC5 while I enjoy playing SC4. Such is life. But I've had my say on most issues, and if I'm ignored, so be it.

But that 'spam filter' button sure would be pleasing to me.

--Romaq

[King Faticus]

pfft I saw david beebe reading this thread twice already:rolleyes:
but you know what? you are right, he cannot technically listen because there is no sound, he DOES read though:p

[JuliaSet]

I would love to have a random map generator for constant change and challenge.

::edit:: addition.
http://www.tiltedmill.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4345&highlight=height+map
Tilted Mill has experience with importing elevation files. post #12 As you will see, they were there with help after the game was released.

[Kuplo]

I agree that Terraforming is really a must in the SimCity games, and Im all for it if implemented with at least some sort of financial implications to the gamer.

Static maps have their place as well. In a well designed user created scenario, a static map is almost a must, since many gamers create their maps with objects in the way of building to "toughen" up their maps for people. If we were able to just remove these items many user created scenarios would lose their challenge, but that isn't to say that they shouldnt include terraforming on non user created scenarios.

Im all for it.

[Chris Beatrice]

To Offspring_dude: obviously the old adage 'ignorance is bliss' is just as applicable today to you.

Anyway, back to the issues, Terraforming should be a part of the game, especially with the same or similar features as for SC4, though obviously they will need to be adapted for 3D.

Thanks for your thoughtful comments. This is a really good thread.

-Chris

[Chris Beatrice]

Yeah, that click-n-filter spam would be real handy about now.

I've no clue if the developers are listening to the input or not. I've not yet received any direct confirmation of any of my suggestions. But I have had the opportunity to state issues of particular concern to me. It's quite possible my wife will enjoy SC5 while I enjoy playing SC4. Such is life. But I've had my say on most issues, and if I'm ignored, so be it.

But that 'spam filter' button sure would be pleasing to me.

--Romaq

Yes, we are listening.
I hope your wife posts here as well.

[Romaq]

Thank you. I relayed that message to her. She wants me to do the posting because she didn't play SC4. I told her that's EXACTLY why she needs to be on the board. We shall see if I can encourage her enough to participate. She does really like the screenshots for SC5. Getting some more direct communication between her and SC5 would be great. Then I can focus on what *I* want instead of attempting to speak on her behalf as well. ;-)

And thank you for the direct confirmation.

--Romaq

[Chris Beatrice]

Exactly!
And, no problem, thank you for participating.

[Rubicon]

I made the case for terraforming to be included in Caesar IV - quite unsuccessfully. If it makes it into SCS I'll be very jealous.

[JuliaSet]

Thank you. I relayed that message to her. She wants me to do the posting because she didn't play SC4. I told her that's EXACTLY why she needs to be on the board. We shall see if I can encourage her enough to participate. She does really like the screenshots for SC5. Getting some more direct communication between her and SC5 would be great. Then I can focus on what *I* want instead of attempting to speak on her behalf as well. ;-)

And thank you for the direct confirmation.

--Romaq

Maybe she should sign up for beta?

[Romaq]

Mikaela may choose to participate in Beta, she is curious about SC5. But she's busy with UO and having fun, and she is reluctant to participate in the forum with the following excuses:

1) I'm not technical
2) I don't know what to say
3) I've only played SC4 a little
4) It looks like some people are really upset, and I can't handle that part of it
5) I have you to deal with all that for me

If TiltedMill would have direct questions to ask of her, or people *like* her, I would be glad to pass that along and have her answer the specific questions, or provide Tilted Mill her personal email so they could exchange information about her state of mind rather than me relaying info second-hand, and filtering accordingly. I don't believe she would mind direct contact. Some of the bile in this forum gets ugly, and she won't take to being spoken to abusively or rudely by the likes of people I've put on my 'ignore' list.

And for anyone who happens to play Ultima Online and the Sonoma Shard, she would be pleased to get to know more people there. Which, by the by, is a point about SC5 as a game spreading some real-life societal energy as players share their creations and become friends. But that’s another thread post.

The very reasons my wife won’t participate on this message board are reasons I think TM would value her reaction to SC5 as it is at this point. I believe *she* is more the target audience than *I* am. She’s sleeping, and I ought to be sleeping by now. I’ll pass along http://media.pc.ign.com/media/925/925931/vids_1.html
for her to review and provide feedback after our sleep cycle.

I don’t believe anyone mentioned the issue of ‘graveyard shift’ as an issue with industrial buildings, but the growth of swing-shift and night shift could be an interesting factor within SC5. Yikes, another message thread! I hope it is noticed that I try to keep separate message threads, I try to stick to the topic, and I try not to spam everything all at once. At least I *try*. Thank you for your patience in this matter.

P.S. JuliaSet, if you find yourself of a similar mindset towards SC5 as I described in my wife, and you would like to just chat with her, PM me through the forum and I’ll see if she’s willing to at least have a friend to talk to by email or PM through the forum under her own name, and just ignore the forum. I think she might be open to that, and it might tease her into actually becoming involved as a poster here as SC5 develops.

--Romaq

[wodinoneeye]

ohh I just remembered.. i hate it when the terrain spikes up in some games that let you terraform so it would also be nice to see a smooth-out area button :)



Of course having buildings that will deploy retaining walls to 'build up a level' or a building where one side can be imbedded in a hillside (with optional second level doors...) to allow building on hilly terrain (which MANY cities/towns were historicly...)

They could do what they should have in C4 (and its not rocket science)

Modern technology makes moving lots of dirt/rock alot easier (and yet they still did it to some extent in ancient times).

[Romaq]

And they have retaining walls all along Merdian as we are on a slow rise with small hills to one side or another. Seattle, the 'Emerald City' is built on a series of hills. Then there's San Franciso. Yeesh! My wife and I had the thrill of cresting Lombard Street:
http://www.destination360.com/north-america/us/california/images/s/california-lombard-street.jpg
SC4 seemed to have everything built in terms of Silicon Valley. If SC5 allows for 'DEM elevation import', I hope TM is mindful of how much 'flat land' is not always available when it comes to building placement.

--Romaq

[Agamemnus]

One great thing about Simcity 2000 was the ease in which you could make precise hills and valleys. With Simcity 3000 and Simcity 4, this was made much more difficult because the tools are not nearly as precise.

[Romaq]

We can get terrain pretty precise using 16-bit per channel image maps, and then importing using SC4Mapper. At least as far as compared to real life and the availability of DEM data.

Having to actually shape a region of any size using *only* the in-game tools is pretty horrible. But then you can use SC4TerraFormer, and that will give you some precision tools to shape the entire region as well.

--Romaq

[Kinneas]

I *like* having my home-town region in SC4. I would be pleased to be able to pull in my hometown with far less the fuss I had to get it into SC4. I think most people would like to be able to ‘import’ their hometown as well. --Romaq

I liked everything you posted but really liked the above.

I admire you and think you are brilliant.
--
This post has some really amazing ideas.

[Romaq]

The person who is really brilliant, found on this link: http://www.simtropolis.com/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=142&threadid=83515&enterthread=y

That would be Wouanagaine who got the Simtropolis Member of the Month award, appearently for his work with SC4TerraFormer. Wou is one of the people I'd really like to see TM reach out to and have evaluate SC:S, as well as give Wou opportunity to have SC4TF 'SC:S ready'. Or... something. But without Wou's SC4TF, the DEM data simply would not have mattered at all. Wouanagaine is part of the New Horizons Productions team, which also has great people that helped me out. Beskhu3dpnm and Moganite were particularly encouraging towards my goal of 'my city in SC4'. So there is a huge resource of really great, brilliant, creative people on various topics involved with SC4, and you (Kinneas) should check out what they are up to.

I very much hope Tilted Mill Entertainment will 'court' giants within the SimTropolis community such as Wou. Some may refuse anything to do with SC:S, but those who can be won over will be a real asset in building the bridge between SC4 and SC:S.

--Romaq

[Agamemnus]

Yeah, that sounds cool and all, but the fact remains that it's very hard to terraform in SC4 itself. I don't like spending time to terraform in one program and actually "playing" in another.

[UnzippedSim77]

I actually terraformed my own local region, the Illawarra, by hand using only SC4 and a map. I rather enjoyed doing it, and it has made playing that region particularly interesting. The thing that annoyed me about doing it was having to enter each individual city tile to edit the landscape rather than just providing the tools for the region view - it would have taken me less hours to do it that way than the 50 or so it took going in and out of city tiles. I'd love to be able to do the same in a 3D version of the game, but it would need to be at region view, otherwise I'd shoot myself lol. Only kidding, I'd probably bang my head a few times againt the table instead.

On a slightly different note, I think the flora also needs to be 'changeable' as here in Australia we have much more diverse plant life that looks distinctly Australian, and I'd like to add that touch to my cities... Just a few thoughts.

EDIT Re: JuliaSet's post below: http://www.acs.edu.au/img-upload/Eucalyptus_citriodora.jpg is one specific type of view of Aussie flora, it has distinctive shape created by the formation of the leaves - not as 'bushy' as trees in other nations as we have a drier climate, as you can see here: http://www.travellerspoint.com/photos/37634/PICT00126.JPG . Particularly distinctive are the grass trees of the more arid regions of the nation: http://k53.pbase.com/v3/27/56927/1/46558080.IMG_3333copy.jpg and then, for the temperate rainforest regions, like my local region of the Illawarra, we have plenty of tree ferns: something a lot of gardeners include in their own gardens: http://www.piercefuller.com/album/england06/web/wimgp1109.jpg

I hope that gives you some idea of the variety at least and the main differences between our flora and that of the rest of the world...

PS: Thank you, Chris, for the affirmation that you are listening to us, it makes us all feel much more at ease knowing that you are genuinely interested in our ideas.

[JuliaSet]

How about a few links to pictures of your plant life? What plants make it look like Australia? IF they could make a few plants for you, what would they be?

[Romaq]

Yeah, that sounds cool and all, but the fact remains that it's very hard to terraform in SC4 itself. I don't like spending time to terraform in one program and actually "playing" in another.

I understand what you are saying, and part of my hope with discussions about these topics is that TM will consider how they can *help* with what we are trying to do, perhaps having that help be within the client.

But it is very expensive to fit 'everything and the kitchen sink' into a single client. I'm actually hopeing for 'SC:S Power Tools' that are *not* in the client, and do not distract from the client, but allow 'advanced users' to meet particular needs.

The Main Thing is to keep The Main Thing The Main Thing.

And 'The Main Thing' for SC:S isn't necessarily to make it a DEM reader or topo render tool. I rather like the fact that I can select from a host of tools to fit specific needs that the SC4 Dev team never appears to have considered. I don't want TM to attempt to plan everything I 'need' out, and in the process limit what SC:S is capable of. I want TM to leave my options open and stay the hell out of the way as much as possible. And 'open options' are not how one does a 'one size fits all' game client.

Hopefully we'll see enough terraforming goodies to get us a good start, and then plenty of wide open possibilities for things like USGS DEM info and WorldMachine to make great terraforming options even better.

--Romaq

[UnzippedSim77]

In further reference to JuliaSet's post above, the trees that I would particularly like to see would be the tree fern (as in the picture I linked to earlier), the grass trees, at least one type of eucalyptus (snow gum would be particularly distinctive with its silvery coloured foliage), and even the Norfolk Island pine which we have plenty of around here locally as well ---> http://galen-frysinger.com/pacific/norfolk17.jpg

Hope that gives a clearer picture for you all. :D

[King Faticus]

that is a very nice looking tree :eek: :eek:

lol you weren't kidding when you say the plants are unique:D
I'm suddenly very glad I started this topic

[moganite]

What I am also concerned with is the lack of terrain features in screenshots and the dead flat terrain.

Personally I would love to see something like SCTF either as part of simcity societies or as part of the Software Development kit.

Why? there is no city that is perfectly flat on medium to large scales and some are built in locations that while geographically undesireable they are very strategic in their placement. Proximity to resources and trade routes and defenses being the primary reasons

As part of the NHP team I helped beta test the programm and add a new feature; the abilty to import terrain DEMs using RGB images and encoding using a numerical scheme. This approximates a 16 bit numbering system using the RGB channels.

This has enabled anyone to be able to import a map using DEM data witout an intermediate step dependent on propritary software and instead use opensource programs to edit the resulting image.

Finally consulting the people who know the flaws the problems of sc4 and what works will help you avoid the pitfalls that SC4 had while retaining what is worthwhile and fits woth your vision.

[UnzippedSim77]

that is a very nice looking tree :eek: :eek:

lol you weren't kidding when you say the plants are unique:D
I'm suddenly very glad I started this topic
I'm assuming you mean the Norfolk Island Pine... I'd love to have that tree adopted as our national Christmas Tree design as it would heighten awareness of our native flora, but that's another issue...

I almost forgot the most important tree to my region (partly due to it being named after the region) and that is the Illawarra Flame Tree, given its name for the region in which it grows, and its red flowering nature which makes the tree appear as though it is 'in flame'. Pictures are here: http://farrer.csu.edu.au/ASGAP/jpg1/b-acer.jpg
here: http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en-commons/thumb/0/02/200px-Brachychiton_Acerifolius-Tree2.jpg
and here: http://www.arch.adelaide.edu.au/games/unplayed/virtual_garden/25_illawarra_flametree.jpg

And I promise, that is the end of my flora wishlist... at least in terms of trees :rolleyes:
Ed

[MarkDuffy]

Thank you are your links, UnzippedSim77! :)

We have quite a few Aussie players of TM games & varied trees are always in HUGE demand! I second your suggestions!

~ ~ ~

Moganite, perhaps you haven't see all the screenshots & I will post one for you. When a company markets a City Building game, most people are interesting in the buildings first, so that is what is supplied. A flat map where they can smash a LOT of buildings together. We got the same type of thing with C4, for example & only geographical screenshots much later as the scenario maps were being designed.

Terrain is always a sticky wicket for game designers. We have our players who want flat & easy maps for huge cities & others, like me, who want difficult tricky terrain to have to build around.

You definitely will see LOTS of terrain in the released game maps! Also flat ones for players who prefer those. Both types are required.

[JuliaSet]

Thanks for the links Unzipped,

Some trees have been imported to South Florida. I have seen small Norfolk pines and mature Flame trees in South Florida as well.

I wish the climate in the Atlanta area would allow for the Flame trees, cause they are a family favorite. We loved to watch for the blooming season and take bike tours in my father's neighborhood. I'd love to see some colorful tree options in my cities.

[King Faticus]

they are here in the panhandle as well, my neighbors have one in their back yard:)

Florida is one of those states with soil and a climate that can support almost any plant:D

[moganite]

I didnt see the screenshots but the videos of the game in action dead flat terrain.
I hope we can build on those hills.
By the way i have some grasp of image editing programs so I do understand how easy it is to do something like that and call it a screenshot that will fool casual inspection. Not insuating anything just hoping those are the real deal and not photoshopped.

The offical screenshot has bluesky and isnt lit as if it iis at sunset just had a look here.

http://simcity.ea.com/screenshots.php

Have a look at the maps in simtropolis there are all sorts ranging from dead flat with just coastline and crudely hand drawn to works of art handrawn and all mountainous maps that are extremely difficult to build on.somewhere in between are maps that have both the flat lands and the challenging hills. Even some maps that look imposing at first can be really deceptive.

Here is some shots of a map that I am currently working on; the Amazon River delta. It is scaled accurately at 1:10 simcity scale (16:160 m) and as a region is 40.960 km square (equivalent to 409.6 km real world) most of the map is easily buildable with the northwest corner being very difficult. It is a work in progress and still has quite a bit of work to do. I know its a bit of a plug but it shows one type of map I like building.

http://sc4devotion.com/forums/index.php?topic=253.20


Finaly, it is what is in the final product that I base my descisions on to buy or not buy on and if you cant have hills, rivers, forrests, mountains and valleys in the final product. I simpily wont buy your game or if i do buy it it wont be when its cost me $100 A but instead 20 or even 10.

[Romaq]

@JuliaSet - On the way to work we have cherry trees that are wonderful in season. I really hope with SC:S they handle 'seasons' in a flexible way. With SC4, you need PEG's seasonal trees, but I've not seen 'Gode Mode' planting of them. I would really, really appreciate being able to tell the game engine 'here is my biome, make flora/ fauna as appropriate'. And, of course, have custom plugins that allow for 'custom biomes' in addition to a list like those here: http://www.nceas.ucsb.edu/nceas-web/kids/biomes/list_biomes.htm

I really *really* would like to see blooming trees in the 'spring' within SC:S. And I just might possibly wish switch biomes on the fly for 'tropical' in the summer, or maybe a 'Christmas' biome.

@Moganite - Bellingham simply isn't flat and level, and coming from a flat and level city (IndiaNoPlace) I find the landscape visually stimulating and wonderful to look at. It may sound silly, but I play a game of 'hide and seek' with the local volcano. Can I see it from my location? Is the weather clear enough? Is there a hill in the way of seeing Mt. Baker? I look up at homes ringing their way up the hill http://www.kayakcam.com/image/gallery-barge-bellingham-bay.jpg. With full 3D, we really get the benefit of being able to *use* 3D water effects and hilly terrain. I very much hope those are part of the final package.

I also hope TM will use 10m/ unit scale terrain. It would be nice to not have to scale DEM to 16m/ unit for accurate renderings. I loose detail in the process that I worked so hard to get in the first place.

--Romaq

[UnzippedSim77]

Thanks for the links Unzipped,

Some trees have been imported to South Florida. I have seen small Norfolk pines and mature Flame trees in South Florida as well.

I wish the climate in the Atlanta area would allow for the Flame trees, cause they are a family favorite. We loved to watch for the blooming season and take bike tours in my father's neighborhood. I'd love to see some colorful tree options in my cities.

I never knew that they were imported into the US!!! I am very happy, mind you, seeing as Illawarra Flame Trees are native to my local region :p Norfolk Island Pines grow extremely tall - we had one in our front garden and it just grew and grew. We used to chop a branch off and use it as a Christmas tree in December, but we have to make sure we have plenty of bug spray beforehand: We had the whole 12 days of Christmas in terms of bugs we'd never even seen before!!!

Anyway, as I said, providing this diversity, and including Romaq's suggested Japanese cherry blossoms (and I'll add the Japanese Maple), the cities can really come alive in terms of flora and habitat. I'd love to be able to produce mountains of snow gums to replicate the Snowy Mountains in southern New South Wales, and see how a mid-size city would cope there, or even a megalopolis...

Anyway, I ramble. Thanks for the comments! It was great to hear our native flora holding its own overseas... Just one thing: try to spread the word that they are ILLAWARRA flame trees, just to plant my local region in people's memories :p

Ed

[Romaq]

Ok, according to Dirk's review of the SC:S preview, terraforming isn't built in. That's fine, I would suggest. Terraforming is *rather* computationally expensive, and perhaps there could be product tie-in with those that do the job well without reinventing what they can do.

I strongly recommend efforts towards cross promotion with products such as WorldMachine. Perhaps the free version could be distributed with SC:S. Of course, effort needs to be made to ensure a smooth import from WorldMachine (or other such product) to SC:S terrain.

I would suggest the same with a solid DEM program such as MicroDEM with links to USGS info. The goal in my mind is to easily acquire one's home area and port that into SC:S.

I'm rather glad that SC:S isn't going to devote energy on reinventing some really good wheels. All I ask is that the products that fit the bill well are pointed to and format conversion is simple and straightforward.

Mention was made how we can import our own greyscale height maps. Please... I beg of you, please allow for 1m OR 10m per pixel, and allow for 16 bit maps to be used directly. 16m per pixel is simply silly, and accurate scaled data has to be converted from 10m per pixel or 30m per pixel to 16m in SC4. And 16 bit maps should be the standard instead of 8-bit JPegs. I mean, 'allow' them to be imported, but if altitude were measured in decimeters, 6553.5 meters worth of altitude changes is quite reasonable. 8bit levels are just... not so good as a 'default' for import/ export.

And if arbitrary image size simply can not be used, please allow us to trim off the excess within the client. Not everyone has 16 bit image editors available yet, and cropping an image to fit SC4 import requirements is a daunting task.

Also, if you are going to make files open, please consider storing terrain highmaps *as* 16-bit PNG images. This will help a great deal for tools like Wouanagain's SC4Terrain Editor. People will be able to directly manipulate images instead of having to muddle through the import/ export process. Of course, you'll have to have data-checks on reading a city to protect against malformed city data, but those should be checks used on image import anyway.

--Romaq

[Nakia]

Ah, terraforming. :cool: Something I am in favor of. But of course it should be realistic. The dirt can be hauled off to build a hill or fill in a swamp. We will then need levees to hold back the water that wants to enter the swamp area. Um, I could expand on this but think I'll stop before I get into real trouble.

PS: According to my spell check there is no such word as 'terraforming'.