SC societies moddable?

[Zaphod]

For many of us simcity fans, we grew up playing with legos or model trains. We like to build things, and also well, get under the hood


Something I hope for is that you will allow users to make their own buildings and other 3d objects as well as textures for the game. Also, would there be a way for third parties to create modding tools?

I think allowing some players to customize the game and get rid of the "cartoonyness" that seems to be in the first screenshot might make things okay for hardcore fans that might otherwise be very dissappointed by this new sequel

so, what are you guy's plans, if you can say anything at this point?

[Poetic]

Yeah, this is my main interest - the customization. Without customization SC4 would have died a long time ago... but after all of these years it keeps going thanks to mods/bats. I'll definitely buy this game if it is customizable. ;)

[Adnoxaei]

I never used to participate in any sort of community web site or download anything more than patches until I discovered what could be done to games. I have a short attention span for games that become repetitive in feeling or look after only months of play. Very few games that are not customizable have held my attention for longer. Sim City 4 (+Rush Hour EP) has kept me playing for Years. I find new custom content and mods that form the game to what I want in it. I can build comical cities, or almost photo realistic cities, work hard for what I want, or plop a few buildings down that let me build without worry. Without that customization available in Sim City 4, I would have Never bought the expansion pack. I also would have never suggested it to friends. Its that simple.

Custom content is the only reason I kept playing; the easy of customization is also part of it. I do not want to shred my game into a glitching mass every time I try to add something simple (like a building, which is sort of a complex thing to do in reality, but that is not a fundamental change to the game so it is ‘simple’). Maxis provided Optional tools for download that made customization a breeze. So, if I want to spend 20 hours on one building, I can spend it almost exclusively on the building and lot, making it the way I want, without spending any time worrying about whether it will work with my game.

I hope that SC Societies will be as customizable as its predecessor.

[David Beebe]

Here's what a fan did with some Caesar textures (with dev comments in the thread)

Previous Games Open for mods (http://www.tiltedmill.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12459&highlight=texture+snow)

[King Faticus]

lol but that is a texture change what about full 3d models? will there be a program to help people create those and import them easily?
I like the idea of creating my own buildings and sharing them with everybody and this woudl make things simpler:)

[mikeseith]

I also am very interested in having the game SCS customizable. I think that is one of the reasons the sim city brand has been so successful, just look at SC2, sc3 and sc4 and their fan support for examples.

[the Monkeys Uncle]

Here's what a fan did with some Caesar textures (with dev comments in the thread)

Previous Games Open for mods (http://www.tiltedmill.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12459&highlight=texture+snow)

lol, compared to what people have done with the game in SC4, that's absolutely nothing. :P To us, modding means you can change anything and everything, within the very basic limtations of the core game engine. So, no pressure or anything. :P

[SimcitySixu]

Can I model this:

http://img368.imageshack.us/img368/4717/owaincrossmajormu4.jpg

and export it as this in SC5:

http://angeltowns.com/town/shyre/nr/owaincross3.jpg

Can I model this:

http://img126.imageshack.us/img126/1105/glyndcomplete51eg.jpg

and export it into SC5?

http://img295.imageshack.us/img295/5903/phoenixfacility5ha7.jpg

http://img287.imageshack.us/img287/9326/phoenixatnight0sm.jpg

or even this:

http://img261.imageshack.us/img261/3605/forslannyh9.jpg

http://img519.imageshack.us/img519/7841/olympics4bol2.jpg

http://scjuwiki.azivelar.net/images/4/44/Scjuwikihq4.jpg

As you can see, the quality difference between rendering in GMAX and 3dsmax and exporting into SC4 is tiny. I'm just wondering how much quality and detail I would have to sacrifice as a BATter ?:)

I don't knowwhat to expect in all honesty, but I do know, hand on heart that I would rather sacrifice 3D views to maintain detail. Texturing just doesn't cut it.

Thanks for reading :)

[Need_Help]

@SimcitySixu
Your models are not bad, as I can see but I think its better if you use UV mapping for your textures. The textures are 'lack of details'. If you have Photoshop (or any other 2D image editing software) I will recommend you to use them, and use the UVW modifier (if you are using Max) and edit the textures. The textures aren't same for the whole building, there should have some dirty spots at the walls near the floor. No offence, but I also found that the textures that you are using was repeating many times, higher resolution texture may solve this problem ;) Personally I'm a freelance graphic 'artist' but I never wanted to 'help' them because I know that they cannot use models with too many polygons. Most of the time they only use Normal maps, or just 'bake' the texture to add more 'details' at the model.

Thanks :)

[SimcitySixu]

As implied, I am a BATter not a graphic artist, nor a texturer. Because IMHO, textures cannot replace model design or model detail.

Also, my post was nothing about textures, it was about models and modelling. Since you didn't address that question I can only assume you don't know either. ;)

[Need_Help]

Texture do affect the details. If your texture has windows, it can be put on a box and when you look it from very far away, it looks like it had been modelled since when you are at a far distance, you cannot differentiate whether its modelled or just 'textured'. In games, most of the things can just be 'textures' if it is not going to be viewed from a near distance. Why you need to spend your 'polygons' when you can just put it as texture? More polygons = slow down the game = requires more powerful PC to run. The opposite for above statement if you are using the 'texture' method. Of course, if you use normal mapping will help you to make the texture looks more '3D' rather than 2D.

Thanks :)

[SimcitySixu]

It's not that I don't value textures, but you are clearly missing my point. Bump maps, opacity, refract, reflect etc are very beneficial to texures, but textures CANNOT compete with detailed 3d models period. You are preaching to the choir my friend, i've been modelling for years, so I have a pretty good idea what i'm talking about in this regard.

Especially in a 3d environment, they look cartoony ;)

[Need_Help]

You need to know, normal maps are different than bump maps. Normal map will look like it had been added with displacement. I give you an example (get from Anno 1701 site):
http://www.anno1701.com/screenshots/devdiary_5_10.jpg
The highpoly model has 2000 polygon, while in the game, they use the low polygon model which has only 320 polygons. You can hardly see the difference, even its at close distance and you can save 1680 polygons. Imagine if you have a large city, and there are many buildings inside, you already saved thousands or even millions of polygons. In 3D environment doesn't mean that they must be cartoony, its just depends on the model. If you see those more 'realistic' game, such as Call of Duty 2 and some other WW2 games, they looks realistic. The reason is because 'cartoony' models in certain cases may save some polygons, since they don't need to have more details while those FPS game can be realistic because their 'scene' is smaller than a CB game. The things are only rendered at the area that you see, those behind the model in your view are not rendered, so FPS are usually more realistic compared to CB games.

Thanks :)

[Jasoncw]

Yes, there are a ton of methods available for making lean buildings. This means that BATers (BAT = Building Architect Tool, the gamepack for Gmax made for Sim City 4) will have to become real 3d modelers. If any BATer looked at a real 3d modeling forum, they would see how n00bish and crude 99.9% of BATers are. I just discovered snaps 6 months ago, and I still don't even know how to UVW Unwrap. And I'm still inexperienced in polygon modeling.

So 3d does not mean bad, it means that buildings will have to be more thought out, and more precise, and better made overall.

If you look at the screenshot we saw, and you look at the models they are actually quite complex, so people will have space to work in. And with no schedule and complete freedom, I'm sure fans will make great things.

As long as they can. ;)


Edit: SimCitySixu, no you don't. I see smoothing group problems in your model. Like I said above, "experienced" in the SC4 community is not experienced on the rest of the internet/world.

[ManagerJosh]

You need to know, normal maps are different than bump maps. Normal map will look like it had been added with displacement. I give you an example (get from Anno 1701 site):
http://www.anno1701.com/screenshots/devdiary_5_10.jpg
The highpoly model has 2000 polygon, while in the game, they use the low polygon model which has only 320 polygons. You can hardly see the difference, even its at close distance and you can save 1680 polygons. Imagine if you have a large city, and there are many buildings inside, you already saved thousands or even millions of polygons. In 3D environment doesn't mean that they must be cartoony, its just depends on the model. If you see those more 'realistic' game, such as Call of Duty 2 and some other WW2 games, they looks realistic. The reason is because 'cartoony' models in certain cases may save some polygons, since they don't need to have more details while those FPS game can be realistic because their 'scene' is smaller than a CB game. The things are only rendered at the area that you see, those behind the model in your view are not rendered, so FPS are usually more realistic compared to CB games.

Thanks :)
A game is only as good as it's programmer. If it's overly intensive, there are ways of making it more efficent while at the same time retaining its quality. It's a matter of finding out how... :)

[Jasoncw]

And plus, look around and the actual developers are posting in the forums. If they made custom content tools (which isn't their choice, it's EA's), I bet they'd be really supportive and helpful when we'd use them.

[SimcitySixu]

Edit: SimCitySixu, no you don't. I see smoothing group problems in your model. Like I said above, "experienced" in the SC4 community is not experienced on the rest of the internet/world.

Who said anything about my models being comparable to CGI level experience or other 3D Modellers?!

http://www.anno1701.com/screenshots/devdiary_5_10.jpg

and if this 3d is so amazing and textures are able to compete with the complex 3d models, then why does the building behind lack it? (it has no depth at all, despite the textures attempt to compensate for it.

Also, the model used is a simple one to model, it's not nearly as complex as some skyscrapers I've had the fortune to see in the BATting section of Simtropolis.

Are you going to try and convince me again that textures will help?

I sincerely doubt it.

[Need_Help]

No offence, but perhaps you should read more about normal mapping.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normal_mapping
Here I also add another image, you said no depth? If there isn't any depth, where does it comes for the shadow, and highlights?
Here is another image for normal mapping (from Wikipedia) :
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/36/Normal_map_example.png

Well, since you don't have experience on making a 3D scene, I don't blame you. Most of the time, when people said that 'your scene is lack of details', usually it means that your texture is too simple.

Can you please answer me a few question. If you want algae at the wall, do you model it or texture it? Aren't the algae on the wall considered as details? You also shouldn't forget, the 'bricks' on the texture are details, that saves your time so that you no need to model brick-by-brick.

Thanks :)

[SimcitySixu]

double post.

[SimcitySixu]

No offence, but perhaps you should read more about normal mapping.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normal_mapping

No offence, but if the building behind the landmark you posted is an indication of normal mapping, then it simply cannot compete with many buildings in simcity. It's almost completely flat, and lacking in any physical detail. The textures are very nice, I'm not discounting their role. I am simply saying IMO, that you cannot expect textures to replace fine details, physical patterns and structures using normal mapping in a 3d environment that equally resembles or exceeds that of simcity 4. Such details would have to be sacrificed, because many peoples computers couldn't handle the poly-count.

Can you please answer me a few question.

Since you couldn't answer mine, at least 5 posts ago, i'm not sure if i should extend the same courtesy :(

[Jasoncw]

Who said anything about my models being comparable to CGI or other 3D Modellers?!

... i've been modelling for years, so I have a pretty good idea what i'm talking about in this regard.

:)


The building behind it looks just fine. Look at it, and you can see the depth on the roof. Look at the windows, and you can see the depth of the window socket (technical term :) ). You can't see the depth of the window frame, but window frames are only a few centimeters thick, so you shouldn't be able to. Go check out google earth or local live, and you can see that real buildings are similar. The only reason you can see that kind of depth in SC4 is because everything is modeled oversized and chunky so that it shows up from so far away (zoom 5 isn't very close).

Porkissimo's models have been posted a lot.

http://files.stexfiles.com/lots/porkissimo/porkissimo_paris%20rue%20d%20antin/bandeg%2Ejpg

It's at about the same scale as the building in the background, and I don't see what there is to complain about. As for the zoomed in views at the bottom of the image, those don't even exist in SC4. The zoom of that screenshot posted before doesn't even exist in SC4. 1 meter in SC4 = about 15 pixels at the closest zoom. Make it half as big, make it isometric, don't antialias the edges, and you have it in SC4.



Add to that, since it's truly in 3d, all of the lighting is a million times better. Shadows will actually fall on other buildings. The lack of anti aliasing in SC4 always bugged me, and now things will be blended. The lighting set up looks just as good or better than the best BATer's set-up.



My only concern with the graphics is the visual style, which won't matter if we replace all of the buildings with our own.


And btw, looking at your station, it could probably be used in SC5, and it would be in real time, with a better lighting set up.

[Need_Help]

Of course you can't expect normal mapping to have 'same quality' as modelling out, but it is better than you model out the things if you are running games, or you want to save more polygons. (on far distance)

Can you ask your question again? I didn't see your question.

Thanks :)

[SimcitySixu]

:)

I see, so in that same regard, you also consider Ill_tonkso, Superstar, Dusktrooper as creators of CGI worthy models or cinematic standard, because they've been BATting for years, too?

Please don't take my words out of context.

The building behind it looks just fine. Look at it, and you can see the depth on the roof. Look at the windows, and you can see the depth of the window socket (technical term ).

If I may be entilted to having an alternative opinion than your own, I disagree, the building behind is not as detailed many other BAT's have seen. While I'm sure the final product will look alright, (Caesar IV, and you cant honestly say the buildings in that are of the same detail as many BATs in SC4) There will not be as many detailed buildings in SS, based on what I have seen so far.

If of course, I am allowed to have an opinion based on what I have seen upto this point?

[Need_Help]

@SimcitySixu (http://www.tiltedmill.com/forums/member.php?u=7170)
Sorry for the 'double post', but can you post your question again? I didn't see what question you are asking me.

Thanks :)

[SimcitySixu]

No Worries:

From my first post:I'm just wondering how much quality and detail I would have to sacrifice as a BATter ?

It's not exactly something you can answer though (and it wasn't aimed specifically at you), since I, like many others have no idea what the final game will be and what kind of Building Architect Tool will come with it.

Of course you can't expect normal mapping to have 'same quality' as modelling out, but it is better than you model out the things if you are running games, or you want to save more polygons.

This is what I feared most in all honesty, I know that with texture "tricks" you can emulate some features on 3d models, I'm not doubting that at all. There are some lovely buildings that I know TM have created, but, and hope you do not make fun of me here, it was/is less than I hoped for. Fairplay, you could tell me to shut up and go away if i was new to the franchise and this was the very first game. However, I like many have been waiting/hoping for the next simcity for some four years now. Based on TM past games, it seems that as a modeller, I will be penalised for making something too detailed. Since I started out two years ago as a complete novice, working in gmax, it just seems my entire learning curve has been waisted on creating complex models, if they are only going to be watered down later.

If you want algae at the wall, do you model it or texture it? Aren't the algae on the wall considered as details? You also shouldn't forget, the 'bricks' on the texture are details, that saves your time so that you no need to model brick-by-brick

Of course the algae would be textures, as you would uses a bump map/alpha map to simulate brick patterns. BUT, I would't texture a recess as a window, I would model a window frame and insert a "window pane" at opacity 80-85%.

I enjoy being detailed in my modelling, I find it theraputic and immensely enjoyable, fences, lamposts, trees, benches etc.. All to create something I find realistic and detailed. It would seem that in a 3d world (as it is currently available), wouldn't allow me to be as detailed as I would love to be.

Please, do nt think I am being at all disrepectful about TM. I absolutely adored Pharoah, and I am holding any final judgements back until I see a final product. BUT, if the detail of the buildings looks like this:

http://www.dignews.com/admin/screenshoot/city_life_46.jpg

Then I cannot in good conscience buy it. Nice low poly buildings perhaps, but to me it would be like the past two years of my continuing skills would be for nothing.

I hope you understand, thank you. :)

[Need_Help]

Personally I'm making lots of polygons when modelling too, but you must understand that when making games, you cannot make things too detailed since it will slow down the game with some 'not necessary' details. Almost every scene that I model will have more than 1 million polygons and sometimes my renderer crash because of too many polygons. Yes, you can continue making very detailed models, but perhaps for 'still images' and not games/animations.

Thanks :)

[MisterDaVe]

We're talking about the details as if people expect the game to be real life. SimCity 4, even after heeps of awesome BATs from so many people, still clearly is not that realistic that we struggle to tell the difference between SC4 and real-life shots, but the graphics in that screeny look like they should be from a low-budget year-2001 SimCity game.

[SimcitySixu]

Personally I'm making lots of polygons when modelling too, but you must understand that when making games, you cannot make things too detailed since it will slow down the game with some 'not necessary' details. Almost every scene that I model will have more than 1 million polygons and sometimes my renderer crash because of too many polygons. Yes, you can continue making very detailed models, but perhaps for 'still images' and not games/animations.

But that's exactly what I mean, in SC4 BAT/Max I can be as detailed as I want, there are limits of course (being the size of the lot and polygon count). It appears I can be twice if not moreso detailed than you, judging by what you've said when modelling a building, because you are penalised for it (the sacrifice of having a game in 3d). I very rarely have to worry about polygon size because when the building is rendred it's not going into a truely 3d world. That means massive, highly detailed buildings can be put into SC4 at a fraction of the size of the original .gmax / .max filesize.

I would rather see Simcity Societies, ditch the 3d and keep the rest of the proposed changes ifitmeans having more detail and realism rather than low poly buildings that, by and large appear cartoonish (note: I didn't say all).

Yes, you can continue making very detailed models, but perhaps for 'still images' and not games/animations.

That's like saying I can paint on running water, ultimately not rewarding.

[Need_Help]

Thats the good and bad about 2D and 3D. The game developer cannot make 2D games now, since the market will be very small, and perhaps their expenses will be more than their income. In 3D, you can zoom, rotate, move anywhere at anytime you want. In Sim City 4, you can only see 4 faces of the building, that is the limitation. Other than that, in 3D, you may see building have sand/snow/water on the roof (they have in Caesar IV) when there are sandstorm/snow/rain. Other than that, you can also see the shadows from West to East and you can also see from the first level of the building, to the top of the building, isn't that cool when you have lots of skyscrapers and towers? Or you can be like one of the citizen, standing at the street, see the shadow overlap at the building, or see the sun rises at the beach etc.

Thanks :)

[SimcitySixu]

Thats the good and bad about 2D and 3D. The game developer cannot make 2D games now, since the market will be very small, and perhaps their expenses will be more than their income.

That's a BIG perhaps though Need_Help. I know that 3D is the way to go eventually, but I do not believe that all games have to be 3D in order to be a success or that 3D is a guarantee of success, just look at Ceaser IV and CotN, both only faired reasonably well by the critics, wheras you look at the response to Phaoroh and Cleopatra, miles apart!

It just proves that 3D doesn't MAKE a game, but its content does.

In 3D, you can zoom, rotate, move anywhere at anytime you want. In Sim City 4, you can only see 4 faces of the building, that is the limitation.

and zooms ;) But yes, these are limitations but a limitation that allows you to be detailed.

Other than that, in 3D, you may see building have sand/snow/water on the roof (they have in Caesar IV) when there are sandstorm/snow/rain. Other than that, you can also see the shadows from West to East and you can also see from the first level of the building, to the top of the building, isn't that cool when you have lots of skyscrapers and towers?

Not if it's from low-poly buildings like city-life, that would royally suck, you wouldn't imagine by how much. If by some marvel of technological achievement TM has a system for S.S that does allow for highly detailed buildings and all that you say, I will be the first in line to buy it, but, ifit looks like City Life 2, I would rather stick with SC4 and hope one day a developer can make a Simcity that can be proud to BAT for.

Or you can be like one of the citizen, standing at the street, see the shadow overlap at the building, or see the sun rises at the beach etc.

All very nice and all, but also very "city life" too.

[SimFox]

Yep if it will be moddable it will be all about Normal Mapping.
But there are few limitations.
First of all normal mapping just like bump mapping is no more than illusion and it becomes an obvious one when you move along normal mapped object. And isn't it the whole point of having true 3D that you can move around something?
Second in case of architecture it will still leave A LOT to be desired. I mean things like railings, balconies window recesses, etc. none of those could really be made well with normal Mapping. It is suitable to make surfaces like say bricks etc.

Need Help:
isn't it bizarre to first design the game is such a way that it WOULD NEED high polycount to be decent looking and then give it as an excuse why it is NOT ???
Good designer would think of these things BEFOREHAND! And not provide his misjudgments and misunderstandings as an excuse for later failures.
Biggest question here is WHY does SimCity Societies need to be true 3D? Why not to leave it same blend of 3 and 2 D SimCity4 is?
What City Life, City Tycoon (another clone) have to offer graphically over SimCity4 with all their true 3D environment? Inferior graphics which, I guess in designers and marketing people minds are compensated by flashy prints on the box (True 3D blah blah...) and flashy, tacky sunsets etc...It is just like all that flood of sunset pictures on the internet as digital cameras became common... Sad bag of tasteless clichés. Doing something because everybody else doing same...
When you say that all your models are in the million of polygons and then they are compressed down to be taken into the game, but I don't believe any of the models in the screen shot of coming game ever been there. And neither did the models of CityLife or City Tycoon.

I also thing that development of high quality 2D game will be prohibitively expensive, not just because low sales, but because those type of models do require more work and talent them stuff we see in CityLife of Ceasar IV. Sales wise… well first you mislead uneducated consumer with al the pushy and inaccurate marketing slogans about “immersive experience of 3d” and then when people buy the stuff and find themselves in this “wonderful” world that consists of crude boxes vaguely masked by flashy light effects and feel very disappointed what do you do? People hear everyday how computers become more and more powerful and how you can do more and more things, then they go and buy say Caesar IV and … just don’t see all the wonders promised. Because that computer power is nowhere near the levels they are constantly told by journalists not knowing their as… from their elbow in either computers or 3D.
How many times would player want to “zoom, rotate, move anywhere at anytime” through place like Children of the Nile? 2-3 days? Not much more. Cause experience is nothing like advertised! Then again 2d imitation of SimCity 4 keeps attracting people for years now.

[Need_Help]

For the critics, I believe that its because if you want to have nice graphics, you must have a powerful PC and most of them don't have 'reasonably powerful PC', so they keep saying bad about the game, and most of them are because the game 'demands high-end PC'. Not really if my 3 years old PC still can run Caesar IV with medium settings (less lag) because when I bought my PC, its just mid-end PC and not those 'high-end' PC.

Depend on them whether they want to put. All these sandstorm, raining, snows etc. appear in Caesar IV. But I believe that the nature disaster (if they have) will be more impressive since you can stand under a building and see the building fall beside you. Honestly, I don't like City Life because the graphic isn't nice. 1st, their buildings are too low poly, 2nd, the game seems to be lack of AA that makes it not smooth and 3rd, the textures used are low quality.

I think its time to change, since 2D graphic appears many, many years ago and we should always have new technologies.

Thanks :)

[Need_Help]

Yep if it will be moddable it will be all about Normal Mapping.
But there are few limitations.
First of all normal mapping just like bump mapping is no more than illusion and it becomes an obvious one when you move along normal mapped object. And isn't it the whole point of having true 3D that you can move around something?
Second in case of architecture it will still leave A LOT to be desired. I mean things like railings, balconies window recesses, etc. none of those could really be made well with normal Mapping. It is suitable to make surfaces like say bricks etc.
Ok, let me ask you again, what do you expect for normal mapping? Did I say that you can have lots of details with just 1 square box? Of course you need to model the balcony, but you can have the carvings on the column or wall as normal mapping without modelling out. Once again, I must mention that normal mapping is not the same as bump map although its also illusion. I also must ask you, aren't those buildings in Sim City 4 2D? All you see are just illusion in SIm City 4 too.

[BarbulaM1]

For the critics, I believe that its because if you want to have nice graphics, you must have a powerful PC and most of them don't have 'reasonably powerful PC', so they keep saying bad about the game, and most of them are because the game 'demands high-end PC'. Not really if my 3 years old PC still can run Caesar IV with medium settings (less lag) because when I bought my PC, its just mid-end PC and not those 'high-end' PC.

Depend on them whether they want to put. All these sandstorm, raining, snows etc. appear in Caesar IV. But I believe that the nature disaster (if they have) will be more impressive since you can stand under a building and see the building fall beside you. Honestly, I don't like City Life because the graphic isn't nice. 1st, their buildings are too low poly, 2nd, the game seems to be lack of AA that makes it not smooth and 3rd, the textures used are low quality.

I think its time to change, since 2D graphic appears many, many years ago and we should always have new technologies.

Thanks :)

SimCity 4 as mentioned I believe a few times was supposed to be 3D, however they wanted to wait till they could deliver the quality of SimCity 4 graphics in full 3D. The quality of the graphics at the time, where not good enough. I would currently say that if one is compare the quality of picture between a new 3D Sim game, and SimCity's isometric 2.5D approach, the 2.5D does still come out on top because of the way it is done. (2.5D because the map and land and objects are 3D, the buildings are merly just rendered images of 3D buildings which has been already established)

Now back on topic. What makes Sim City as it is now, is the community of highly devoted people working towards mods. With only 4 installments in the franchise over the past nearly two decades, it is a tradition. What happens many times is they drop certain features from newer versions, and we emulate the dropped things in the new version as well as work towards things for the next which in turn are put into the next version, as well as features being dropped. For example, running water/surface water, due to the water table in Sim City 4 it was not possible (even though we did find out it was intended, as it was primativly coded in but disabled), so we created it, it was previously avalible in SC2K, SC3K, and SC3KU.

Modding to the extent that we have now is an incredible asset, that would be detramental to the community if it where dropped.

(I do relize that this is not Sim City 5, but in the event this is indeed EA's replacement and 5th installment on the franchise, we must be able to make the game the way the SC community wants to play, as well as the TM.)

[Need_Help]

@Simfox :
Again, as I said before, nowadays if the game is not in 3D, sure it will get less imcome than those in 3D with nice graphics. Is there any new game in 2D right now? (those made by popular companies) Perhaps a few years back you can still see one or two new game in 2D/2.5D, but since less and less people buy games in 2D, the game maker must make the games in 3D in order to attract people to buy the game. They also need money to support the company and themselves, why they need to make those game in 'outdated graphic' and make less people buy their games? I believe that there are about 50% of them buy the game because of the marketing, graphic, recommended by friends and not the gameplay.

Thanks :)

[frndofyaweh]

still no real answer to this threads main subject.

I know my marketing and love the research. So, listen to me preach this message, that I have been preaching all along, one more time.

In order to keep a competitive edge over newer breeds of console gaming such as, Nintendo Wii, the PC game developers need to follow some simple rules. Engross the gamers in rich content and cater to your main audience, which is micro managers, with a pentient for details. SS must be a game of individuality and personal identity(The Sims), or a game of customizable content. These two things are what keep the true SIMizens coming back for more.

I love what I have read about Tilted Mill Ent. so far. Paricularly the companys creed and motto to deliver engrossing content and not just fluff.

No customizing means, I may think twice about investing in this game. Or I may buy it for different reasons, but without moddability, SS will not replace Simcity4 hands down.

[Need_Help]

For modification about the game, my answer is yes. If you see TM's previous 2 games (Caesar IV and Children of the Nile), you may notice that you can download modification by other players, and at the same time, you also can find user created scenarios. I believe that TM like to give their players edit the game with their 'creativity' (edit texture, map and maybe model). For editing model, I'm not sure because they used Granny to make those models, so....I don't know whether other app made models can be put inside the game, but if there is a 'converter' will be better :)

Thanks :)

[SimFox]

Need Help:
Well I don't argue with the whole economic justification, but saying that this is all because people want it... is, how should I put it, a bit of a push. Most people don't really know what they want. And their “want” is artificially created for them by the marketing departments; if you have ever been involved in the business you should know it. People want entertainment, the idea how it will be arranged and what exactly it will be is more often then not put in their heads by advertising. Nintendo Wii and its success is a perfect example of this. In the age when everybody deems essential to put HD on the box Nintendo decided that people don't want HD they want FUN and HD doesn’t really mean FUN! Same as "True3D" doesn't mean fun, or even immersive experience". Doing same stuff as everyone else speaks, first of all about luck of ideas. And desire to capitalize on already somewhat dated model (Caesar IV) but that's understandable we all need to eat. But passing it as something else well they may try, but that doesn't mean we have to accept is.
We can and should speak our mind!
About computers... I almost always have very much top of the line systems and still that doesn't make Caesar IV realistic in any meaning of the word. It just can't be it! Not with that lighting, modeling etc...
And yes SimCity is NOT 3D. And it saves it! Since your viewing position is fixed you always see "best possible" view. Something impossible with games like Caesar IV All games that moved from 2 /2,5D to 3D had significant deterioration in quality of graphics "compensated" by flashy oversaturated explosions and some such - tacky effects aimed to fool customers (and sometimes cause some seizures??). They never really added anything to realism!

About Normal Mapping, I never said that it is same as Bump Mapping, neither did I suggested to make balconies and recesses and stuff with it. I just said that model to look good need a lot of geometry. Geometry that just CAN NOT be done with said normal mapping! And that is a problem! On top of it the mode you move away from 90 degree viewing angle the more obvious it becomes that normal mapped flat surface is in fact flat. And in case of City where you may “walk” along the street MOST things you’ll see will be EXACTLY at these unfavorable angles! So all you “carvings” etc will look rather like paintings!
So, in the end, move to “true 3D” will leave us with inferior environment, that’s all!

"Scenarious" isn't something people think when they ask about moddability
Actually given the nature of the engine I doubt that there will be possibility to create own models. What and how will be controling complexity? And without such a control game could quickly collapse. And Tech support in EA wouldn't want to deal with that...

[Need_Help]

When you talk about graphic, I wanted to ask you again. Aren't the buildings in Sim City 4 in 2D? They are also flat images. All I can say is just wait for more informations and stop complaining before you get the real and accurate information about that game. Of course you no need to have the ability of making scenarios, since you are levelling the land when you are in god mode, if they are making it like the previous Sim City. That is just an example. You always mention about realism, why don't you try to make a game? I believe that, that is the best way to let you understand why they don't make all the things totally realistic. Are 2D images more realistic than 3D images? Please, just stop complaining about that game, you just saw one image of the game, and that image is in early stage.

[Jasoncw]

First, I'd like to remind everyone that BATs normally take months, and this is only a few hours work.

http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/7131/sc5lowpolyyw8.jpg

It is based off of a real building, and it's modeled to proper scale (not ridiculous SC4 scale). The texture is just a simple bitmap, there is nothing special about it.

The bottom half and the rest of the building isn't finished, but I think the entire building could be made under 1500 triangles. The texture is 273x1024 pixels.

The real building has some modest stone work on the top, but the reliefs are shallow enough that no one would argue that texturing tricks could represent them. I haven't put them on because I'm tired of making this :) and I think what I have shows my point.

Up close it doesn't look amazing, but I'm sure as time goes on, we'll learn how to make it look better.

On the right is the building at zoom 5 for SC4. Look how small it is. In my opinion, the perspective on the left is better than the SC4 preview.

[callagrafx]

Bloody hell....

¨My models better than yours, neh neh neh neh neh¨

The vast majority of BATers, while talented, are a) amateurs and b) using a PoS cut down bit of software that requires an addon to render, that doesn't allow bumpmapping OR normal mapping. A full version of 3DS Max will set you back around £2000 so that's not an option for a vast number of people.

I'll backtrack a little to point a. They are amateurs in the respect they do not do it for a living (there are a few of us who do) not amateurs in the respect of the detail and sophistication of a model...I recently nightlit Glenni's Aesby Magasinet and the detail and modelling were first rate, and he's only 16. Plenty of others like Debussyman (have a look at his stuff on the BSC LEX (http://www.sc4devotion.com/csxlex) (you'll need to register) have miles of talent too.

So, do you think you could stop behaving like children and wait and see what Tilted Mill propose and if it's moddable as SC4 is?

Oh, and SixU (6underground, my welsh buddy)...Textures are EVERYTHING in a 3D model..without them they are just shapes, much like the Mona Lisa would be just a canvas in a frame without the paint. A good model badly textured is a waste of a good model.

[Jasoncw]

That's not what I'm saying, I'm saying that it is possible to make something look good with a polygon budget.

There are free modeling programs that work just fine, and have most of the same tools that would be used in making these buildings. In that way, it could be better than SC4, in that people can get great results without 3ds max (the only program which has a BAT hack for it), and that they can pick from a variety of modeling programs.

The learning curve would be higher, which is unfortunate because less new people will join in, but there are already a lot of BATers who can start learning how to make buildings with these new demands.

I am saying that having 3d graphics will not make the game look bad, and that it will not make the game impossible to modd.

btw, who is debussyman? I've never heard of him before. :rolleyes:

[SimcitySixu]

Oh, and SixU (6underground, my welsh buddy)...Textures are EVERYTHING in a 3D model..without them they are just shapes, much like the Mona Lisa would be just a canvas in a frame without the paint. A good model badly textured is a waste of a good model.

Hey Dude, as I said, while I think textures are great and integral part of BATting, they are used to COMPLIMENT a 3D building, not the other way around.

Simfox, made some excellent points about normal mapping, it cannot replace detail, it simply doesn't have that same capacity.

I want to be proven wrong guys, I really do. But, I suspect that it'll likely be a little more advanced than City Life (detail wise), but not able to compete with SC4 detail. Because many people's computers can't handle that level of detail.

[wodinoneeye]

For many of us simcity fans, we grew up playing with legos or model trains. We like to build things, and also well, get under the hood


Something I hope for is that you will allow users to make their own buildings and other 3d objects as well as textures for the game. Also, would there be a way for third parties to create modding tools?

I think allowing some players to customize the game and get rid of the "cartoonyness" that seems to be in the first screenshot might make things okay for hardcore fans that might otherwise be very dissappointed by this new sequel

so, what are you guy's plans, if you can say anything at this point?


I would hope that TM integrates a mechanism that allows additions of player created assets like buildings (not just for the meshes/animations but also for tailoring attributes that tie in with the game mechanics).

Player created mods can greatly increase the playability (more sales $$$) and lifespan of the game (additional sales $$$) as the players themselve expand the game (well beyond the $$ and imagination limits of the company).

The question is: Are they willing to take the risk of the costs of developing the tools up front in order to have a superior and possibly much more successful game or will they play it safe and settle for the mediocity of most games on the market????????

I dont know what the current license for GMAX is (was it $50000 ???) or how much its likely to cost in addition to develop the graphic plugins -- as well as
a proper user friendly editor for all the game mechanics related factors/attributes.

A good editor built from the start and integrated immediately can actually greatly increase the companies asset pipeline and facilitate testing and production of scenarios (lots of $$$$$$$$$$$$ saved) and then can be turned over to the players so that they can also create the mods that enhance the game significantly.

[Jasoncw]

They'd just need to make a utility that could import generic file types (.S3D for example), and then add whatever properties for that object. Also some kind of lot editor or something along those lines if that's how the game works.

There are a lot of free programs, and non-free programs for modders to use to make good models, but we would need a way to get them into the game, and to make them functional.

[javispedro]

I dont know what the current license for GMAX is (was it $50000 ???)
Gmax is dead. Even City Life had to go 3Ds max.

[Romaq]

(snip) so, what are you guy's plans, if you can say anything at this point?

Reading through this thread makes my head hurt and eyeballs melt. My hope is that TM will look through the likes of the Asian Bats, The STEX, the PLEX, SC4D and so on and look at the group of people who have made the SC4 cut last years and years beyond 'official public contact'. There is significant emotional investment into the work that has gone into SC4, and my hard drive has an order of magnitude in custom plug-ins over and beyond the 'out-of-the-box' SC4 content.

I’m not interested in ‘reskins’ of SC5 content. I’m interested in new buildings outside the scope of what SC5 was or will ever be designed for. I’m not interested in a ‘reskin’ of a dirt road. I’m interested in the SC5 version of the NAM (http://www.simtropolis.com/stex/index.cfm?id=18239), only for SC5.

“EVERYTHING NOT FORBIDDEN IS COMPULSORY!”

Whatever SC5 does or does not do that is ‘like’ SC4, I want to see much, much less ‘forbidden’ from the standpoint of what the engine is capable of by our SC4 BATers and MODers, and much, much more room for serving our compulsions. If that means we can make ‘cheats’ that interfere with the spirit and intent of SC5’s game design, so be it. The new SC4 NAM has “Gentle Road Curve and S-Curve puzzle pieces [that] have been added” along with other facilities nowhere on the slate with SC4 ‘out of the box’. Then there is http://www.simmars.simvision.net/ (Sim Mars) done by the SimTropolis Community. That flexibility is what we crave, and we hope to see a response from TM that we *will* be able to accomplish those sorts of things with SC5 that we don’t get ‘out of the box’.

I’ll be posting with other related issues with custom content development as I read through message threads here.

--Romaq

[wodinoneeye]

They'd just need to make a utility that could import generic file types (.S3D for example), and then add whatever properties for that object. Also some kind of lot editor or something along those lines if that's how the game works.

There are a lot of free programs, and non-free programs for modders to use to make good models, but we would need a way to get them into the game, and to make them functional.


Unfortunately the data for a 'building' block might be a bit more than the mesh+textures and some attributes in many games. Some have animations
(and particle effects like smoke) and others navigation paths for the ant people to walk about within the structure. Others might have built in sound effects (for when you zoom in close). In CotN where you got to watch the building get built, so they had to include sub meshes for the gradual phases of the construction and variations for contents (like when the Overseers changes assignments and different props were shown alongside their houses). No doubt more complex game mechanics might have scripting included as part of the attributes (not just static values).

Not impossible for a wizard utility to organize and package, but potentially much more complex than just the 3D shape....

[King Faticus]

exactly the problem I am facing with cotn modding atm:(

[Romaq]

So... one of the 'selling points' for SC4 batters is simply the whole new ballgame... er, 'meta game' to play in, but they are not starting from 'nothing', they are starting with their preexisting work.

It does seem as if there is some boredom among the SC4 batters. You can only make so many buildings and wonder where you go from here?

SC5 could provide an excellent answer to that.

--Romaq

[MarkDuffy]

Suggestion for the TM modding tool name ~ TMT

:D

[callagrafx]

It does seem as if there is some boredom among the SC4 batters. You can only make so many buildings and wonder where you go from here?

SC5 could provide an excellent answer to that.

--Romaq

I disagree...We BATers are producing new works on a daily basis, of differing styles and functionality. We're a long way from being bored. I suggest you have a gander at the SC4Devotion LEX and see what's been produced recently.

Here's something I just completed

http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l151/callagrafx/bridgeentry.jpg

Plenty more where that came from :)

[Romaq]

Well, excellent! I had the impression things were slowing down, but perhaps it was one group or another that was running out of steam and ideas. I don't follow it all that closely. The bulk of my focus has been on recreating terrain and figuring out how to do a concurrant multi-user setup.

--Romaq

[Anya]

I just hope the people with this modding talent come over to the new game. It will make it wonderful for the rest of us if they do.

[Romaq]

I don't expect all will, but some might depending upon how much grease TM puts on the import-skids to slide that material on over. And some love.

Mr. Producer Man, any word on how much love the BAT buildings and props will get for importing to SC5?

--Romaq